Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If my father (whether I liked him or not) were killed in my house in broad daylight, I don't imagine I would so quickly give my instructions for the funeral home-- I'd still be so shocked. Does the fact that Lizzie asked for Winward's so soon after the fact, or under such extreme circumstances, seem a little odd to you? Sort of too phony, like it had already been planned. Or had it been...? And it was Winward's Undertaker, wasn't it?

I can't find it.

Yes, at first look it does appear suspicious that Lizzie requested Winward.

The first person she told this to was Ms Russell I believe, the same day of the murder right after she went up stairs to change.

But James Winward was an associate of Andrew Borden. Both men were undertakers, both men sold furniture, and both their business establishments were less than a block away from each other on South Main Street. Winward could have been a close friend of Borden. Lizzie must have known James Winward well. She may have been very fond of him.

So, what may appear suspicious may be nothing at all. After all, those who experience death of a loved one do not make sense at times or may not function in a rational way.

That's so true!

Yes, Winward did not do the actual embalming of the Borden bodies. It was probably not his profession. Like Andrew Borden he was an undertaker. Undertakers back then were more like funeral directors. Borden and Wnward probably worked together, no doubt.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the person who drew the blood from the Bordens, other than Lizzie, was a man named Renwick?

I think.

I would need to look it up.

Good topic and question BrainKLoftin.

Yes, I had to look it up to re-assure myself.

In 1892 Andrew borden was at 41 South Main. This was the Andrew J. Borden Building, the same corner and location where Andrew had his carpentry, furniture, undertaking business.

In 1892 James Winward had his place at No. 13. South Main St. If not mistaken, (again) it was probably in the Granite Block. (?) Or very close to it anyway.

Yes, Now:

I love it when I'm right...................,but it's a lot more interesting when I'm WRONG. It gets a lot more applause.

Now.

I have no idea where I came up with this Renwick person. I tried to find him but could not. Where in the world did I come up with that one????

The first appearance I find of James Winward was in Porter, who says that Winward was given the bodies after the autopsy to prepare for burial.

So where in the world did I find the name Renwick, and the idea that he embalm the Bordens?

I just looked and the guy's not listed in the fall river directories of the period.????????

I find the idea and practice of embalming fascinating and have done quite a bit of reading on it, especially when it pertains to the Bordens.

So, I must of read it somewhere. ?


See what happen's when you don't go to a reputable source..........gud knows it's not me.

Boy

I feel like I'm doing homework for a final here......

The best source on the Borden murders is trial transcript. As it goes from there to the newspaper and books it becomes corrupt.

So, to the Trail transcripts we go.

There it corroborates what we (you) already know, (and I am finding out) that Winward (Winwood?) was given the body for burial and probably did do the embalming; though you wonder what was left after the coroner tore into the bodies.

(talk about hijacking and hogging this thread from BrainKLofin)

In normal circumstances, even today, it is customary to ask the family who they want for funeral arrangements briefly after death. I believe Lizzie was thinking in terms of making arrangements for her father, a prominent banker, out of respect for his position in the community. I don't think Lizzie even comprehended, at that time, that murder changes what is respectful and customary. I think she was in shock, alone, and trying to do the right thing...no matter how bad this looks from hind sight.

It may have been a ruse to get Alice Russell out of the room so she could change her dress. Here's Alice's Trial testimony (page 383):

"Q. Were you in the room with her at any time upstairs before a change of dress?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anyone else there besides you and Miss Borden at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."
Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.
Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for him and he came.
Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.
Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.
Q. What sort of wrapper was it?
A. Pink and white stripe, I think."

Lizzie would later have another problem with Alice being there which IMO resulted in a second trip to the cellar.

Yes, yes, and yes:

I found a source. A bad one, but a source or mention no less.

Though I have Hoffman's book, I have never really examined it in full detail.

but here's a clue; found right her on our forum: Now where did Hoffman come up with such a tidbit?

19. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-14th-02 at 9:51 PM
In response to Message #18.
I am not 100% positive but all the readings I have done in these past four weeks have all read the same, that the autopies were performed in the dining room. If that is true then the bodies would have been laid out on the, gulp, dining room table. Uh, two for the uh, non-smoking section please. I have yet to read any publication citing the sitting room as the post-morteum theatre. I also read that the bodies were placed in the caskets or coffins, and "laid out" for viewing in the dining room. Andrew as placed on his left side so that the left side of his face was hidden by the pillow. This position made him appear less hideous. Abby was placed in the supine (back down) position as her wounds were all posterior and did not pose a viewing problem. By all accounts Undertaker James C. Renwick* (who worked for Undertaker James E. Winward) did an outstanding job of preparing the bodies for burial. (*Reference source: Paul Dennis Hoffman, Yesterday in Old Fall River - A Lizzie Borden Companion, page 375-6)

(Message last edited Mar-14th-02 9:52 PM.)

Please allow me to mention one more thing.

Just because James Winward Undertakers prepared the Borden bodies does not mean that Mr. Winward himself did the cutting and draining.

When testifying in court Winward said he could not remember whether Mr. Andrew Borden was wearing a ring. How can you take a razor to a dead body and not remember a ring or any jewelry on said body? Could it be because he was not the one doing the embalming?

Could be, could be.....

I believe Hoffman to be incorrect on the name of Renwik. The only place I know of where that name appears is the Providence Journal. In their summary of the day's testimony they cite "James C. Renwick" taking the stand and testifying about whether or not he saw a ring on Mr. Borden.

It was James E. Winward not James C. Renwick who took the stand. Simply a reporting error.

What has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie telling or asking Mrs. Churchill about having to go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived and before Abby was found. Why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

Well, nothing is proven. I checked the Prelims and Winward's testimony is a little more extensive then the trial and there too he claims that he prepared the bodies. There is no talk about embalming.(?) Though embalming was practiced back in 1892, I have been informed that many people did not have it done. Was it?

Winward claims that the bodies were placed in his hands for preparation and burial and that he was in charge, but he does not go into what the prep involved.

So, who was James Renwick. I can find nothing on him, though Hoffman found him somewhere. I can't say he is wrong, or right, until someone proves it so.

I really over-posted on this one. Must be that new Brazilian coffee I started drinking today..........high octane.

Below is an 1892 add for two of the biggest embalmer/undertakers of the day in fall river. The Waring name is still in the business today 118 years later.

But if you are bored with the "JAMES RENWICK" question?

Here's another:

Who was Lizzie Borden's undertaker and embalmer?


And now that I have bemused you with that question--------I'm done here.

Yooper has an excellent point. I'd never looked at it from that angle before. I agree, it raises my eyebrows to think she was in the mindset that she was the one in charge, that Abby had been done away with and she knew she wouldn't be going to the cemetary to make arrangements, that it would be her, Lizzie.

Sorry for the rambling sentences; I've been up all night trying to piece together scenes for my own would-be screenplay. Not on this topic at all, but didn't Lizzie go fishing with her dad quite a bit. I wonder is she was like son Andrew had never had, while Emma was more the demure one. I'm just throwing that out there and have no idea what I'm really talking about... :) Just a possibility. I mean, the girl was lifting weights in 1892, was she not? (Forgive me is any of this seems like reaching, lol)

Thank you guys for setting me straight on this!

BrianKLoftin @ Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:37 am wrote:If my father (whether I liked him or not) were killed in my house in broad daylight, I don't imagine I would so quickly give my instructions for the funeral home-- I'd still be so shocked. Does the fact that Lizzie asked for Winward's so soon after the fact, or under such extreme circumstances, seem a little odd to you? Sort of too phony, like it had already been planned. Or had it been...? And it was Winward's Undertaker, wasn't it?

I doubt Lizzie was lifting weights in 1892 but I feel she was one to try different things. A bit of a "tomboy" maybe.

People react differently in a given stressful situation, like finding the dead body of a loved one. Sometimes shock doesn't set in right away and they are able to perform normal duties for awhile, like arranging funerals. Other people would come unglued right away. I think Lizzie was in on the murders but if she was innocent and knew nothing about them, I think the reaction she showed would be in the "normal" range of emotions.

-1bigsteve (o:

When Lizzie was upstairs with Alice Russell, Abby's body had already been found. Am I missing something?

It is "Winward"; not "Winwood". "Winwood" was how they must have pronounced it with their accents.

I think the name "autopsy" is something of a misnomer when it comes to 3pm on August 4, 1892. It was referred to many times back then as "the first autopsy", and I think even that is putting more into it than there was. I think all they did at the house was remove the stomachs and send them to Dr. Wood in Boston to test them for poison.

The bodies were given a thorough autopsy (referred to back then a lot as "the second autopsy", when this was THE autopsy. They hadn't done this work at the house - only the stomachs). Ennyway, they were given an autopsy right at the cemetery in the receiving tomb, which is still there at Oak Grove Cemetery. The heads were removed then.

I've kept my eyes open for their embalming but to date have found nothing on whether they were embalmed or not. I would think they were, but I don't know at all.

That's interesting, Harry, that Lizzie brought up Winward's to get rid of Alice Russell.

When I was at the helm of two family funerals, I knew ahead of time where they were going right after they passed. Yes, at least today they want to know right away if possible what funeral home to contact.

But if I hadn't have known, I would have been in a dither and have had them hold the bodies until things were decided.

I do think that Lizzie spat out "Winwards" too fast. To me it sounded like she already had it planned.

I saw on some tv show this week that getting a body embalmed today is totally a choice, but they said it makes for a more sanitary viewing.

mb, I had no idea that Winward's was so close to Andrew's place of business! That's very interesting! All I found out about Winwards was it was 'the place' to go when you, uh, "go". I don't know if the Bordens were real chummy with Winward or not, tho. They were in competing businesses.

Lizzie herself was a Winwards customer when she died. I'll bet she requested it.

I think the rumor/fact that Lizzie was "lifting weights" or working out comes from The Witness Papers (page 46) when Edwin D. McHenry wrote that he interviewed Mrs. Potter and sister, Miss Dimon, "the milliners on Fourth street.... and elicited the following: Lizzie Borden has been practicing in a gymnasium for a long time, and she has boasted of the strength she possessed, not to these people, but to others. The place where she practiced was supposed top (sic) be in the Troy Block."

Yes, I don't find it strange at all that Lizzie thought that the function or responsibility of burying Andrew Borden was hers.

After all, she never accepted Abby as being one of the family.

Now that her father was dead, I am sure that there would be hell to pay now that her father was gone, and it would be Abby as the payee.

It was her father, her family, her Borden blood, and the point would be driven home to Abby is she thought she had anything else to do with the Borden's of Second Street.

If in fact the rumors were true that Lizzie felt as strong as she did about Abby, Lizzie would surely make Abby's life insufferable.

Yes, sorry Harry. I did not see your post above.

The Providence Journal? Sounds about right that the source was a newspaper.

But is there in fact an undertaker named Renwick? Was he the actual Undertaker with the blade and fluid bottles? If so, he did not live in fall river. Directories prove that.

With the testimony of Winward one is left with the impression that he was in charge, that it was his responsibility, but it did not mean that he was the actual embalmer.

I remember many years ago speaking to an old classmate of mine who went on to be an undertaker/embalmer. At that time he told me that though there were 15 to 20 funeral homes in the area there were only 3 actual embalmers; who wold travel from place to place to practice their trade. So to be an embalmer one did not have to own a funeral home or to be a funeral home one did not need to have an in house embalmer. (?)

Yes, Augusta. If the Trail transcript information has been copied correctly by Koorey/Widdows, then the State/courts have made an error with Winward's name.

Court records refer to (James) Winward as "Winwood". Thus the reason for the incorrect spelling.

Also: William Ridings - Undertaker worked for Winward Undertakers right around the time Lizzie died.

William Ridings was living in the Davenport House on the second floor in the early 20s and right up to 1925. So Ridings who worked for Winward lived in the next house over from Lizzie.

Interesting. Sure they spoke?

Could he had been Lizzie's embalmer? Undertaker? The one who prepared the body?

Interesting!

I heard on one of those forensic shows that a body is gonna look only as good as the embalmer was. So today, apparently there are some who are better at it than others. That makes perfect sense that there would be traveling embalmers.

So someone working at Winward's lived in the Davenport House?? That's very interesting!

Oh, it would be fantastic to get hold of the detailed invoice of Lizzie's body handled by Winward's. Her bill came to something over $600.00. That sounds like a LOT. But since they're about seven to ten thousand (or more) today, maybe not so much. She must have picked out some casket.

Yes, it appears that the spelling of Winward as "Winwood" came from the stenographer who was typing it. The witnesses were not made to spell their names as they do today. I think it's charming. It gives us a little peek into how they sounded at the trial with their accent.

Yooper @ Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:13 pm wrote:What has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie telling or asking Mrs. Churchill about having to go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived and before Abby was found. Why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

I have always thought the same thing, Jeff. Not only was it an odd time for her to make this statement, I also think it was odd that Lizzie felt it was her responsibility to go to the cemetery to make the arrangements, rather than Emma’s responsibility. Since Emma was the oldest, wouldn't it have been her responsibility?

I expect Emma should have at least been involved in making the arrangements. While Lizzie and Emma may have thought it their responsibility to make arrangements for Andrew, everyone else likely would have considered it Abby's responsibility. Lizzie said something to Mrs. Churchill about expecting that Abby had been killed, too. Unless she thought it was raining hatchets in Fall River, this implies that Lizzie thought Abby was in the house. Lizzie didn't seem to give a single thought to Abby, except after being prompted by others.

Does anybody find it odd that before the murders, Lizzie told people a bunch of nasty things about Abby. But after Abby dies, wouldn't it have been a rather natural thing for Lizzie to remark to someone, during her lifetime, that she was glad she was dead? Lizzie was a straight forward person. If she did not do the killing, would that not be surprising?

Yes, I think both Emma and Lizzie would have shared the burial duties of their father. The more that's posted about it, and the more I think about it, the stranger it seems that Lizzie blurted out "Winwards!" It looks like further ammo for those who think her guilty.

Abby's family was apparently not a consideration, either. If Lizzie felt responsible for burying her father, she also seemed to accept responsibility for Abby's funeral after Abby was found. That seems an odd thing to do for someone who felt estranged from Abby for so long. I don't remember reading anything about Abby's family being consulted as to their preferences.

With all the stuff Abby had told her family about how she was treated by 'the girls', I would think that her relatives would have stepped in and taken over Abby's burial details, especially her young half-sister, who was like a daughter to her.

I can see Lizzie doing the funeral arrangements ... "Yes, Mr. Winwood, I think the Peaceful Pine casket will be adequate for my father. Oh, and don't forget the six-button black kid gloves! Oh, that is for me to remind Em of. I am on morphine and got mixed up." "It is no wonder with all you have been thru, Miss Borden." (places a hand on her arm) "Oh my stars! I forgot about the Other One. Do you have a casket made of paper?"

I don't think anyone has found Winward's actual receipt of what was done and to who. That is assuming Abby was handled by Winwards, too. (I'd think it'd be very awkward trying to use two undertakers.)