Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was watching a bit of a documentary on the Lizzie case and one of the experts said something that has been said a million times before, but somehow this time it reached my ears differently. Plus it was said by someone who is fanciful with the facts, so when it was said, I was conditioned to poo-poo it as a matter of course----which led me to this idea.

Work this through for me. Tell me I am wrong by showing or arguing the point.

So we have heard forever that Emma left Lizzie because of some argument or problem at Maplecroft. Often, Lizzie's friendship with Nance O'Neil and/or theatre folk have been used as the basis for the split. Also mentioned is that Lizzie may have been having some sort of affair with Nance, and this disagreed with Emma's religious sensibilities and she had to move for her own spiritual salvation. (that she could put up with her sister being an accused murderer but not as a theatre lover or lesbian makes no sense to me, but that is not the point of my post)

So what if this: Lizzie kicked Emma out. It was Emma that was living in a lifestyle or life choice that was antithetical to Lizzie and Lizzie gave her the boot. This doesn't have to mean anything nefarious, as it could be as simple as piety or religious fervor. Maybe Lizzie was entertaining theatre people and Emma kept ruining everything or proselytizing them or something, or judging them, and Lizzie had it and said be gone.

Or it could be simply that Emma was tired of living with Lizzie and wanted a life.

Tipping this on its head like this makes me look at the story in a whole new light. Since Lizzie is characterized as a dominant personality, whether or not it is true, it makes sense for her to be the one to make this choice.

What say you?

Never thought of it this way before but maybe Lizzie is the one that forced Emma to leave. Emma always has come across as the docile complacent one and maybe Lizzie did ask/suggest/request/insist that she move out. This would NOT surprise me as Lizzie was always subjugated by someone, ie: Andrew, Abby and even Emma. Lizzie might have finaly discovered who she really was/wanted to be and she wasn't going to let anyone stand in her way anymore. I can see it going down the way the scene played out in the "Legend of Lizzie Borden" movie where Emma is stating she will go visit the Brownell's in Fairhaven.........EMMA:(timidly) I think I will make my home elsewhere.........LIZZIE:(sarcasticaly) Why don't you do that Emma.

What about this scenario:
Emma gave Lizzie a "cease and desist" ultimatum about something (associating with theatre people, giving parties for them, and/or being friends-or-more with Nance).
To which Lizbeth replied, "No can do, Em. Arrividerci."
IOW: Ultimatum from Emma leads to ouster from Lizzie?

Here's a thought: Emma was jealous of Nance, demanded that Lizzie cool it, and Lizzie replied, "Like it or leave it."

I think we tend to underestimate Emma. I can see her giving Lizzie a "my way or I hit the highway" choice.
And Lizzie calling her on it.

I think it's a refreshingly new way to look at Emma's departure. I would not think Lizzie kicked Emma out, but rather maybe Lizzie gave her a choice in the form of an ultimatum. There must have been some "Should I or shouldn't I?" question running thru Em's head to be sent to Reverend Buck for his advice.

This leads me to another thought: How do we know that Lizzie and Emma never spoke for the rest of their lives? How can anyone prove a negative?

I've been doing some research on the Mysterious Veiled Woman, Elizabeth Annette Stockwell, who attended Lizzie's trial. She had an infamous divorce...it concerned her use of clairvoyants and love potions.

Spiritualism became very popular at the end of the Victorian Age. One of my suppositions is that Lizzie began to dabble in spiritualism, pehaps even having seances at Maplecroft--trying to communicate with Andrew?

This practice would not fit into the Congregational mold of religion which Emma was practicing with the Bucks.

Something compelled Emma to leave a house she had as much right to as Lizzie. Emma apparently never insisted Lizzie buy out her share nor did she try to dispose of her interest in the house. In fact, Emma left Lizzie her share of the house in her will. If Lizzie had given her the boot, I expect Emma may have insisted on disposing of her interest in the house.

Since Emma never tried to disassociate herself completely with Maplecroft through retention of her half ownership, maybe she didn't completely disagree with Lizzie or her lifestyle, at least not to the point where complete disassociation was necessary by disposal of her interest. Emma just needed to be away from there, for some reason. I fully expect it was a voluntary move on Emma's part.

nbcatlover, Yes, spiritualism was popular then. And Lizzie enjoyed new things, being in a group, and having fun. I would think she may have participated in it in a fun way. I would not think she would participate in a serious way, because I think she was a religious person. Somewhere in the Bible it tells us not to dabble in that stuff.

If she was guilty, I don't think she'd try to contact Andrew. But if she wasn't guilty, maybe she was using it seriously to try to find out who killed him.

It's an interesting concept you opened. It was a very popular activity.

It occurred to me that the Lizzie and Emma split is an echo of Lizzie and Emma switching rooms in 1890. Lizzie wanted a bigger room and stuffed Emma back into the small room. Perhaps at Maplecroft, Emma bowed to the same dominant, selfish strain in Lizzie and got out of her way.

Emma being disturbed over Nance but not over the murders enough to move out can be explained by either 1) Lizzie didn't do it 2) Emma believed Lizzie didn't do it whether she did it or not 3) the lesbian affair never existed or it wasn't the reason.

Richard, could another reason be that maybe Emma was in on the murders?

Congratulations on your book, by the way! Good stuff!

As a point of information, Spiritualism has been practiced as a religion in this area starting during Lizzie's lifetime. The village of Onset is very near Marion. It was founded by Spiritualists in 1877 who were inspired by the Indian spirit guides used by the local Wampanoag Indians. They started holding religious summer camp meeting in 1894 in The Wigwam, and summer camps are still held annually. A central aspect to their buiding is its healing pole. Camp meeting season is usually from Memorial Day Weekend to Labor Day. The Wigwam opening this year is May 16 and runs through October 3.

Source: http://www.onisetwigwam.com
Check out the Photos from the Inside.

I have reason (gossip) to believe Lizzie was exposed to their religious practices which emphasize "Healing, Mediumship, and Spiritual Unfoldment." After her treatment at the Congregational Church after the trial and her ostracism by folks in Fall Rive, I believe she may have tried their practices. I do not believe this was found palatable to Emma or Reverend Buck's girls.

From The Wigwam's page:

"As the sunflower turns its face to the light of the sun,
So Spiritualism turns the face of humanity to the light of the truth."

How ironic ! I am reading a book titled Lily Dale, and I thought about Lizzie a great deal. I wonder if Lizzie ever went there ? She'd have fit in, I think. Spiritualists are varied. I have known several. Had she met one who encouraged her to seek the truth for herself, and avoid tricksters, she'd have been on the best path. I feel she'd have wanted to contact her mother, if possible. Spiritual journeys are highly individualized. Honest Spiritualists don't try to bilk people out of millions. Most of the Spiritualists I have met have a reverence for nature, and a love of animals. Lizzie certainly loved nature.

stargazer @ Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:11 am wrote:Honest Spiritualists don't try to bilk people out of millions. Most of the Spiritualists I have met have a reverence for nature, and a love of animals. Lizzie certainly loved nature.

That's right. I attend a Spiritualist Church and have seen a number of excellent mediums who are spot-on with their information; my ex-boyfriend (who is still a good friend of mine) attends the same church and is a medium himself. I hope to be able to communicate with spirits one day. Spiritualim rocks!

As to whether Lizzie was interested in it, there is no way to tell, but it is not an unreasonable suggestion.

I have never given thought to Lizzie asking Emma to leave. I do not know why I always assumed it was Emma's idea.
As I was reading the posts I was thinking about Lizzie getting the larger and brighter room on 2nd street and then I saw where Richard posted those thoughts. I can see Emma up hiding in a room while Lizzie and her friends were holding a loud party downstairs. Lizzie once again getting the larger part of the house.
Emma seemed to like to live in the shadows and well, living in the same house as Lizzie after August 1892 had to put one in the spotlight.
Looking at Emma's departure from this new light, I can see where it might have been Emma's idea and I can see many reasons why she would have left. I like all of the ideas I have already read here, but the one I like the best is Emma just wanted some peace and quite. She didn't want anymore party noise or people slowing down to look at the house where "the accused murderer" lives.

Yes, Debbie it also seems plausible that Emma was done with living in a house that was gawked at and gossiped about. She stayed for a little more than a decade, and Lizzie's reputation in town must have had some sort of effect on Emma as well. By leaving Maplecroft, maybe Emma was just distancing herself from the controversy and wanting to live in peace, so to speak.

The idea that Lizzie was involved with Spritualism is provocative and plausible, but we just don't have any solid evidence.

As for gossip being a source of evidence, it certainly has been proven that anything you can possible think of including Andrew abusing his own children has been the hot topic of gossip for as long as the case has been around. But gossip has to be followed up with harder evidence, like letters from Lizzie to a spiritualist, someone who wrote in their diary they were at a seance at Maplecroft, etc.

Note: This is not a commentary upon the veracity of spiritualism. It's merely about whether Lizzie indulged in it or not.

OK, wild idea here:

What if EMMA somehow orchestrated the murders and Lizzie's spiritualism worried her?

My number one reason for believing Lizzie didn't wield the hatchet is that I can't believe she would burn a dress in front of a witness when there would be other chances to do so.

Unless it was Emma's dress...

That's a real interesting thought, goddess.

I think, tho, that the murders could not have been pulled off if Lizzie were not in on them. And it is hard to believe that she wasn't part of it. It's also hard for me to believe that Emma was not part of it, since Emma admitted that she disliked Abby even more than Lizzie did (at the Inquest).

I think the biggest clew we have on Emma's leaving is that it was something pretty serious - serious enough that she went to Reverend Buck with it and she wanted his advice to reach a decision. Should she stay or not? And he answered that she should leave. It makes it sound like it was over something moral or immoral, but Emma might have taken any problem to him, knowing him and his daughters as friends and trusting him as far as confidentiality went.

Emma later was senile, I think for at least two years before her death. Maybe she was showing early signs of it. Maybe she always had shown signs of it. Maybe Emma made a bigger deal of it than it really was, and Reverend Buck told her she should move out, to calm her nerves.

In the end, it was Emma's decision to go. Even tho Reverend Buck told her to, or agreed with her that she should.