Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This may have been asked already in a different way, but : "Where would you like to be invisibly stationed on the day of the murders ?" For the sake of argument, I will allow two places. I would like to have been on the steps when Bridget fiddled with the front door to let Mr. Borden in. I could see/hear Lizzie's reaction, and also see Mrs. Borden's body under the bed. Second to that, I would like to be with Bridget in her hot room when Lizzie called her to come down. Strange how I wouldn't want to watch the murders, but I already feel that Lizzie did both killings, and have the visions in my mind's eyes.

Yes Stargazer:

Very engaging question. I too would chose the top stair at the front of the house. I could see Abby's last few seconds of life along with the murderer. The location would place Abby on the other side of the bed so that the gory scene would be somewhat obstructed. (Not into blood, myself)

The other location I would chose would be by the front driveway gate. Just between the Borden and Churchill properties. This way I could watch both the front and rear entrances. By this I could view in full sight the killer leaving with the axe. Believing that the Borden murders were done by a third party, this would fulfill my curiosity in good order.

But then again.......if the murder left my the cellar entrance, he could have headed for the Kelly property and I would have missed him.

With no murder weapon ever found, and ass-u-ming Bridget was not in on the crime, the only solution is a third party. (with Lizzie's knowledge, of course)

Since we can pretty much assume Lizzie spent time cleaning up and re-dressing after Abby's murder, I'd be more inclined to know just exactly how she did andrews. I would position myself in the kitchen looking at AJB on the sofa. I'd like to know if she used his coat as a shield, if she wiped the blade of the hatchet on it, exactly where (cellar?) and what she did next in those 10 to 15 mins before hollaring at Bridget. I would be able to see for myself if she had much blood on her, if went downstairs with the weapon or if she slipped it into a pocket of her skirt. And staying in the kitchen after the maid rushed across the street, I'd know what she did then. She didn't "sit down" until Churchill left her house to come over where she found lizzie on the backsteps. Kind of awkward if you have a hatchet concealed in your skirt. It's this precise timespan that is most interesting to me.

This is a really fascinating question to pose Stargazer.

I think I'd want to be stationed in the guestroom at the foot of the bed. I guess I'm more morbid than you two lol. I would want to see the event as it took place. It would answer so many questions I've had over the years.

The second place I'd want to be stationed is at the side door when Uncle John arrived back at the house. I would like to end the controversy about what he should or shouldn't have seen in the yard when he arrived that day.

First choice:

Between the door to Lizzie's bedroom and the door to the guest bedroom.

Second choice:

Just inside the side door, with a view to the backstairs as well, so traffic upstairs and down cellar could be viewed.

1) Under the guest room bed. 2) Behind the couch.

In Lizzie's room after the murders when Dr. Bowen gave her the bromo caffeine. I'd be interested in what kind of conversation took place then. Then in the cellar that night when she made a second trip down alone.

Seems like all the good spots have been taken. I guess then I'd like to follow Mrs. Churchill around, and stand behind her in every spot she happened to be that day to see what she saw.

Yes, and that is the essence to this dilemma. No one saw the crime. No one discovered the killer. No one saw anyone come or go from the house.

But this does not mean no one did.

The fact that someone entered and left that house unseen is a very plausible one. And fortunately, or unfortunately, no one was there that moment to see it.

Luck, not planning, constituted a substantial component to the success of this crime.

Someone walked off with the axe. Someone walked off with the blood splattered clothes.

Though the police may be labeled as a bunch of incompetents finding such items is elementary.

Nope, someone else was there. Could it have been someone Lizzie knew and wished to protect?

And no one was there to witness it........not even us.

Does this mean that a third party did the killings? I think so. But not necessarily so. Lizzie could have done the crime and the third party walked away with the bloody clothes and axe.

If not Maggie, then who?

Much easier to find a friendly accomplice who will be happy to assist one with such an endeavor. Having them do the killing for you could be asking a bit much.

Trying to trace the different scenarios to this crime is like tracing Adam and Eve's family tree. It goes well beyond Noah.

Thank you all for answering. I spend a lot of time going over most things in my head, and I find it impossible to imagine that Lizzie didn't see or hear a thing, and just happened to miss colliding with the killer. I try to imagine myself going to any place in broad daylight, and think that I am invisible. An outsider would have to be inconspicuous. The anniversary is coming up soon. I am eager to hear about planned events. Between this crime, and Villisca, I don't know which one is more puzzling.

stargazer @ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:55 pm wrote:Thank you all for answering. I spend a lot of time going over most things in my head, and I find it impossible to imagine that Lizzie didn't see or hear a thing, and just happened to miss colliding with the killer. I try to imagine myself going to any place in broad daylight, and think that I am invisible. An outsider would have to be inconspicuous. The anniversary is coming up soon. I am eager to hear about planned events. Between this crime, and Villisca, I don't know which one is more puzzling.

I too would want to be at the top of the stairs where Lizzie stood. And then in the room where Andrew was murdered. I could handle that. But I could definitely not handle being in the Villisca house, either then, or now. I get a sense of great evil even thousands of miles away that gives me the heebie jeebies.

The two main places that come to mind would be in two positions where you could see who commited both crimes, in the guest room and in the sitting room.

Mbhenty kind of summed up something that I have thought about for a long time. I have thought that if time travel were possible and I could be there, how I could find out what I want to know without changing history.

I thought of myself sitting unseen in the tree in front of the house by the side entrance. Although that would leave the basement door unchecked. Of course having invisibility as an option I could choose another location.

I may have invisibility but I don't have the option of being in two places at the same time. So I will pick the guest room and the sitting room.

If I could be in two places at once I would be sitting in my tree in front of the house and in the back yard from early mourning until the after noon so I see who came and went. I would take notes of the times of the comings and goings. I would know what times Bridget was washing the windows. I wouldn't see who commited the crimes but I could certainly narrow it down by watching from the outside.

jcurry, the door between the kitchen and the sitting room was kept closed, so if you were in the kitchen all you would see would be the door.

Angel what is the villisca house ? Is it the Borden house? I am not familiar with the word.

Interesting about sitting in a tree. I wouldn't mind being somewhere like that just to get a glimpse of the man that Ellen Eagan supposedly saw that day.

Angel is probably talking about the house in which the Villisca Axe murders took place in Villisca, IA in 1912. You can find a lot out in the net. Another bloody massacre took place in Maine in the early 1800s in which the Purrington family was slaughtered if you're interested.

Check out http://www.villiscaiowa.com/

Yes Fargo:

There's an unrelated connection between Villisca and the Borden case.

Somewhat !

To some, anyway.......

Those who subscribe to the "John Morse was the murderer" camp.

John Morse's farm in Hastings, Iowa was just 30 miles from Villisca.


OOOOOOOOOOOHHHH

Alas, Uncle John is innocent. The Villisca murders occured on June 10, 1912 and John passed away on March 1, 1912, some three months earlier.

Or did he? . . . . . .

That's what his tombstone says. He also would be one month shy of his 79th birthday in June 1912.

With a bird's eye view, I focused on The Kelly house, and Churchill house. Didn't Mrs. Churchill have a young girl visiting ? Were they home, or shopping at the time of the murders ? I can imagine that people glanced from their windows quite a bit during the day. Who would risk being seen walking onto the Borden property ? I am a great one for peeking outside to see if the world is still there. Someone could see a great deal from the Kelly house, correct ?

If I hear an engine, or footsteps, I look to see who is coming. The back of the barn, and back yard would be somewhat hidden from anyone walking past the house, but weren't there houses in back of Lizzie's that were 3 story ? I'm not saying that someone couldn't sneak in, wait around (yawn) and kill Mr B. The parlor was a good hiding place. That would be a long hot wait.
I should talk about Villisca in the other thread here on the forum somewhere. I always jumped from one suspect to another with that crime.

The Villisca murders I have always found a really chilling case. All those people murdered on one night in the same house, including children. The other axe murder caseI found interesting was the case at Smuttynose Island.

I think I'd like to be a fly on the wall in the quest room and in the sitting room.

The Smuttynose murders really intrigue me too. I'm not so sure Louis Wagner committed them.

I imagine if I could be invisibly stationed in the guest room when Abby was murdered and in the sitting room when Andrew was murdered, there would be little reason to be anywhere else.