Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I have not been lucky enuff to find this book wet (its hard do read Lizzie in Sweden ....), could some one please tell me a littel about hes theory?

Is it beliveable? Is the book any good? Dose it points out some "new"?

Hi Jimmy,
I’ll probably get shot for saying this, but I thought the book was a good read, Masterton believes that Abby did go out that morning (to Sarah Whiteheads), who was not home, and that she was killed AFTER Andrew because she saw what the murderer looked like (after letting him in to the house)Masterton believes the TRUE murderer was a guy called Henry B Palmer who was embezzling money from the bank, Andrew found out and that’s why he was killed, I would be interested in finding out what others thought of this book, and how much can been proven factually from Masterton’s theory?
Cheers
Aaron

I haven't read the book yet but it sounds interesting. I will give my review after reading it.

Thanks very much jamfaws

Sound like a bit unusual idea that Masteron has. I hope will find the book sonn (for some reson i cant order it frpm amazon.com).

Hi Jimmy,
There are 2 available now on ebay, buy it now for $14 I think, go to ebay and put in William Masterton and you will find them

Cheers

Aaron

Ships to: United States

Basters!

Louise and Charles Samuels book seams hard to find also.

ask them if they will send to you in Sweden, via the ask seller a question link, sometimes they put US only, but if you ask they are ok with it, or you can try abe books they have lotes of sellers for Borden books.

Thanks, will do just that!

I hope you get the book soon. I am interested in knowing what you think about it.

I've been a fan of Masterton's for years. But I know what you mean Aaron – I, too, feel this admission puts me in the line of fire. I think a lot of Bordenites knock him because he eliminates the usual suspects (Lizzie, JVM, etc.) from his scenario -- and because he gives reasons why he thinks Lizzie is not guilty.

The main thrust of Masterton's argument is that there may not have been an appreciable difference in the time of the two murders and I think he does a good job making his case. His years as a University professor are probably what allow him to outline this premise in a clear, logical manner.

Masterton does not pretend to solve the case. He refers to the murderer as "Nemesis" -- Henry Palmer is only one of his possible suspects, along with Joseph Carpenter and Jonathon Clegg. But he also goes on to itemize the reasons why he is not totally sold on any of these three.

He emphasizes that his goal was not to come up with the ultimate answer, but simply to “change the ground rules” for looking at the Borden mystery.

Thanks Diana, I must admit I liked his style of writing and the possible 3 suspects, I think he had a good point about Abby going out, and why she was murdered, when you first read it you think no way, somebody surely would have seen her leave or come back, but it’s not impossible for her to have gone unnoticed, and masterton reconstructs it in a way that leaves your mind in doubt. but I was wondering if any records can prove either way if Henry Palmer was an embezzler?, and what records would prove that he was in Fall River at that time?, I’m not doubting Masterton, but it would be good to see some kind of proof, does anyone have info on records and paperwork he viewed to write the book? he gives a good argument for all the suspects, but then again so does everybody else from other books, although I really don't hold with the theory that there were two killers, and I am still half convinced that it was Lizzie, the crimes scream out such hatred towards both victims, and so many blows to the head, done in such an amateur fashion, I wish the axe thrown on the roof next door would show up, at least they could test it for human blood (if it hadn't been cleaned since) Ahhh, it's enough to make you mad!!!!

Having walked from the Borden house to the former site of the Whitehouse house with Len Rebello and Bill Pavao, I can't IMAGINE Abby doing so in that neighborhood with no one seeing her. I also didn't think the author did a particularly convincing job of proving that Abby was, in fact, killed after Andrew. And on that basis, I reject his theory. But I DID read the book!

Do you know how much the neighbourhood had changed since Abby was alive? and how long would have it taken her on that hot day?

It would've taken her about 10-15 minutes, maybe more if she really did "waddle." Len showed me how there's an access street to the Whitehead's that didn't exist in that time, so I've taken that into consideration.

All that time, up and down those narrow streets, and no one saw her, that round little pudding of a woman!

And I also don't buy that Abby went out of the house in that shabby housedress, given the custom of the day that didn't even have a maid going outside without a head covering of some kind.

Thanks Bob, that must have been a great day out for you? and yep I think your right she wouldn't have left the house in that dress, but it was an interesting theory nevertheless!

Bob Gutowski @ Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:23 pm wrote:that round little pudding of a woman!

Thanks for that, Bob!

actually "that round little pudding of a woman" is
quite sweet, much nicer than saying that big fat hog
or such. very sensitive choice of words BobG!

I agree with you, Nancie.

I, personally, don't picture her being as short and stout as some folks seem to think she must have been. That isn't really a "round little pudding" lying on the floor in the crime scene photos.

However, Bob's choice of words was delightful to read and made me smile.

pththt messed up and can't delete this would a mod be kind enough to do it for me?

Won't happen again

Bob Gutowski @ Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:23 pm wrote:It would've taken her about 10-15 minutes, maybe more if she really did "waddle." Len showed me how there's an access street to the Whitehead's that didn't exist in that time, so I've taken that into consideration.

All that time, up and down those narrow streets, and no one saw her, that round little pudding of a woman!

And I also don't buy that Abby went out of the house in that shabby housedress, given the custom of the day that didn't even have a maid going outside without a head covering of some kind.

BINGO! Agreed! She never would have gone out in that dress and without a covering!! As a women's history buff I just can't see Abby doing that...can't see many women doing that, granted I know little of her. Ok, it was really hot so I could see her throwing the hat (if she had enough gumption & I don't think she did considering her hair piece I think she cared) but to go out in what was considered almost pajamas?

UNLESS..it WAS an emergency and she was in a huge rush to get out of that house?! Could that explain someone not seeing her...if she was scurrying and trying to make herself scarce running from someone? A woman at a brisk pace would catch attention especially on a hot day..unless she was trying to hide?

I do want to read the book....I want to believe lizzie didn't do it...

jamfaws @ Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:53 am wrote: but I was wondering if any records can prove either way if Henry Palmer was an embezzler?, and what records would prove that he was in Fall River at that time?, I’m not doubting Masterton, but it would be good to see some kind of proof, does anyone have info on records and paperwork he viewed to write the book?

Did you subscribe to the LBQ? Terence Duniho wrote an article about some of this:

"Duniho, Terence. 'Friends From Boyhood: A Police Officer and an Embezzler.' Lizzie Borden Quarterly VIII.3 (July 2001): 7, 17-20.
Duniho follows the trail of Joseph W. Carpenter, Jr., an employee of Andrew J. Borden who had embezzled $6,700 from Borden & Almy as a possible suspect in the murder of Andrew and Abby Borden."

Citation from:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... Auth.htm#d

Also, in The Knowlton Papers, there is reference to Carpenter:

Page99
"#HK098
Notes, handwritten in lead.

Joe Carpenter, about 35.
Stole from Borden & Almy.
Family in F. Riv.

Once in Binghampton, N.Y.
Last known in Holyoke
Peddling ink & before murder!

Man shaved him in Fall Riv Monday Aug. 1 -
(Pete Driscoll, barber.)

Geo. W. Barney is his father in law-
School teacher in F R named Dean knows that Carpenter was in F.R. Aug 4th & left with his wife next day."
______________________________

Page 100
"#HK099
Letter, typewritten.

ATTORNEY GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT,
COMMONWEALTH BUILDING,
Boston, Nov. 22, 1892.

My Dear Knowlton:-
Jennings was here to-day, evidently indisposed to consent at first, but more inclined to before he left, I think. He went away saying that he must see Adams, and that he would let us hear from him as soon as possible.

Jennings tells me a story about one Joe. Carpenter, who had a grudge against Borden, who he says ought to have been looked up. He says Pete Driscoll a Fall River barber shaved Carpenter in Fall River Monday, August 1st. He is a son-in-law of George W. Barney, of Fall River, and is known there as a rather shady character. Have you ever heard of this; or
has anything been done about it?
Yours truly,
Attorney General

Hon. H. M. Knowlton"

______

ALSO:

Page 153
"HK143
Affidavit, typewritten, with notations handwritten in ink, notarized.

State of New York,
City and County of Albany, ss:
Joseph W. Carpenter Jr, being duly sworn, says that he resides in said City and County; that from the 18th day of July 1892 to the 13th day of August 1892, both inclusive, he occupied a room in the premises Nos. 33 and 35 Maiden Lane, in said City every night during said time, and that he was not absent therefrom on any night during said period.
Sworn to before me this Joseph W. Carpenter Jr.
24th day of January 1893.
Wm. F. Beers
Notary Public
Albany Co. N. Y."

"State of New York,
City and County of Albany, ss:
Victoria A. Foreman, being duly sworn, says that she resides in said City and County, and occupies the premises Nos. 33 and 35 Maiden Lane in said City, and rents furnished rooms in said premises; that she knows Joseph W. Carpenter above named, and rented said Carpenter a furnished room in said premises during the period mentioned in his affidavit; that she had read the foregoing affidavit by him subscribed, and
knows the facts stated therein, and that the same are true to her own knowledge.
Sworn to before me this Victoria A. Foreman
24th day of January 1893.
Wm. F. Beers
Notary Public
Albany Co. N. Y."
______

ALSO:

"CARPENTER, JOSEPH WILMARTH, JR. 1855 - 1899: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, son of Joseph Wilmarth and Phoebe A. (Kershaw) Carpenter. A partner for a short time with Z. L. Bruce in the produce business, he was subsequently employed as a bookkeeper by the firm of Borden, Almy and Company, until a dispute between him and the firm's proprietors caused his dismissal. He was married to Miss Annie Barney, daughter of George W. Barney of Fall River. In 1882, he relocated to Holyoke, Massachusetts. After this time, he was employed as a traveling salesman in association with an ink manufacturing firm. He died in Worcester, Massachusetts, at the residence of his sister. Although an attempt was made to implicate him in the Borden murders, he was cleared by an alibi provided to Captain Philip Harrington by Mrs. Victoria A. Foreman of Albany, New York."

From:
Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

--You see, Carpenter was supposedly cleared by Harrington, but Duniho shows how these 2 could have known each other since "boyhood."

Kat, No I haven't subscribed to the LBQ, I don't have a credit card and money is to tight to mention, but hopefully i'll get sorted soon and subscribed (although i'm way behind everybody else) I get the feeling that the old format magazine that was printed is hard to come by? would love to have a complete run of those. I'm asuming the new on-line format is downloaded on to your computer and you print it out if you want? i'll get there in the end. Cheers Aaron

That was a great day...it was just after Len had taken me on a private tour to show my the improvements he'd made, such as the antique match wells on the walls. How privileged was I?

I must call that dear man!

I'm calling the dear man since an hour ago but he's not there.
He would LOVE you to call, Bob!

I recalled we had a topic going in the archive on "Suspect Mr. Carpenter" and will provide the link for anyone interested in him as a possible suspect:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... penter.htm

Thanks Kat - you are a qusisst (bad spelling I suppose...) for us all.

There's more about Palmer in the papers, if anyone is interested. I noticed we only covered Carpenter.

What's a "qusisst?"

I think he means that you force us to look up the answers ourselves-- even when you know them!

Which is good-- But I do sometimes wonder if you were once a teacher!

While we were growing up, if we asked our parents a question, they always said "Look it up."
They provided encylopedias, books on Science,Nature, Math, Time-Life books and a huge dictionary.
Then after we got our answer we told them too, so they learned something as well (if they didn't already know...).

diana wrote:I've been a fan of Masterton's for years. But I know what you mean Aaron – I, too, feel this admission puts me in the line of fire. I think a lot of Bordenites knock him because he eliminates the usual suspects (Lizzie, JVM, etc.) from his scenario -- and because he gives reasons why he thinks Lizzie is not guilty.

The main thrust of Masterton's argument is that there may not have been an appreciable difference in the time of the two murders and I think he does a good job making his case. His years as a University professor are probably what allow him to outline this premise in a clear, logical manner.

Masterton does not pretend to solve the case. He refers to the murderer as "Nemesis" -- Henry Palmer is only one of his possible suspects, along with Joseph Carpenter and Jonathon Clegg. But he also goes on to itemize the reasons why he is not totally sold on any of these three.

He emphasizes that his goal was not to come up with the ultimate answer, but simply to “change the ground rules” for looking at the Borden mystery.

He makes you think and not just take everything you read as face value. And in addition, someones recommended that I look things up online- what's to make you think that things online aren't tampered with?

Who recommended that you look up things online, MysteryReader? I think Possum and I begged you to get hold of the testimony documents and use the Forum but I don't know who would be telling you to look up bits and pieces online?

Curryong wrote:Who recommended that you look up things online, MysteryReader? I think Possum and I begged you to get hold of the testimony documents and use the Forum but I don't know who would be telling you to look up bits and pieces online?

My bad, Curryong! You said use the search engine on the forum... I saw the words search engine... I do look things up online but I do have the testimony documents as well.

OK no worries, as we say in Oz!