Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Did Lizzie say such a thing? A sensational newspaper item (it appeared in multiple papers) speculated after the crimes. This is an edited (my edit) version of it that appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard.

Friday, August 19, 1892 Page 1

WAS IT A THREAT?

Andrew J. Borden Once Moved
to Tears.

His Daughter Hoped He Would
Come Home a Corpse.

She Said That He Probably Would
Before Long.

Important Statement Made to
Capt. Orrick Smalley.

Information in His Possession Awaits
the District Attorney.

".... Much has been printed concerning the relationship which had existed of late between the two, and no doubt a great deal has been printed which is no more or less than hearsay. But to-day the Standard prints a statement, which, coming as it does from Capt. Orrick Smalley, chairman of the Overseers of the Poor, causes one to give more than usual credence to the story. The captain was at first disinclined to relate the circumstances of this new chapter in the mystery, and not until after being informed that his story was in possession of other newspapers out of town, would he consent to talk. Said he: "It was my intention to have acquainted District Attorney Knowlton with the circumstance before this, and I am surprised that the gentleman to whom I related the story on Wednesday has so soon repeated it."

".... Capt. Smalley was enjoying his vacation at Craigville during the Borden murder, and the next day after the crime, while he sat on the piazza of Hotel Palmer with others discussing the terrible news from Fall River, he gave utterance to the remark that it was impossible for the daughter to carry out such a horrible deed.
There were those on that piazza said Capt. Smalley, who did not agree with me. A stranger, to whom Capt. Smalley addressed most of his conversation, was the one who related a conversation with Andrew J. Borden, which has since opened the eyes of those who have heard it.
This gentleman said that not long since, while he was out to one of Mr. Borden's farms the old gentleman, with whom he was acquainted, came out very much disturbed. Upon being questioned he remarked that he did take much comfort at home with Lizzie; that she wouldn't eat at the same table with him, and that only that morning when he accidentally went into the room where she was eating she got up from the table and left the room.

"..... This gentleman also said that Mr. Borden told him this with tears in his eyes, and further remarked that when he left the house Lizzie told him she hoped he would come home a corpse; probably you will before long.
Capt. Smalley in relating this to a Standard reporter said he was thunderstruck, and not being acquainted with the gentleman who had related the circumstance he made inquiries concerning him. The captain learned that the gentleman was a reliable person residing in Fall River. His business is that of a traveller, and he is prominently connected with one of the Fall River churches."

The story continues on August 22, 3 days later:

"... George W. Hathaway, who told this story to Capt. Smalley, is a travelling agent for firms dealing in stove furnishings, and his route takes in the smaller towns and villages on the Cape and in the eastern and central parts of the state. Mr. Hathaway was found at his home by a Standard reporter, and says the story he told was not concerning Andrew J. Borden's family. The circumstance, he repeated, happened in the family of a friend of his in a distant part of the country, and Capt. Smalley misinterpreted it when he understood it as occurring in the Borden family. Mr. Hathaway had no personal acquaintance with Andrew J. Borden.
At the police station yesterday one of the earliest visitors of the day was Mr. Hathaway. He seemed particularly anxious to disavow the statement of Capt. Smalley and have the marshal and the public understand that he was citing the case of another family. As for himself, he said, he believes Miss Lizzie Borden innocent, and was not flattered at all over the notoriety he had obtained in the past few days."

"Capt. Smalley Reiterates His Statement.

Capt. Smalley was seen at the office of the board of Overseers of the Poor this morning by a Standard reporter in relation to Mr. Hathaway's statement.
"What I have said I have said, and what I have said is true," said Capt. Smalley, "that is, if this Mr. Hathaway is the same person with whom I talked."

It would seem the story would end there but the November 17th Standard listed witnesses testifying at the Grand Jury hearing. It included the following:

"... Orrick Smalley of New Bedford, whose friend at Craigville, George W. Hathaway, told him about a conversation with Andrew J. Borden in which Mr. Borden was said to have told of family infelicity..."

The prosecution was indeed grasping for evidence for it to include such a doubtful story as this.

What I found interesting was that I could not find this story in any book on the crimes.

It may be that the prosecution thought they were better off to not mention it at all rather than have Smalley tell his story and have Hathaway deny it in court. One or the other wasn't telling the entire truth, or was embellishing to some degree. I could see it being a simple misunderstanding if it didn't include the part about Andrew at one of his farms. I have to wonder about Andrew spilling his guts about family matters to someone like Hathaway, unless Hathaway was a close friend. Hathaway was the one on the hot seat, he didn't like the notoriety he received after the statement came out.

Notice that he did not deny making a more generalized statement about a daughter saying that to her father somewhere else, and it was likely mentioned as substantiation for an argument opposing Smalley's position that Lizzie couldn't have done it. Hathaway was supporting the idea that Lizzie could have been the murderer, and that Smalley was wrong to say she couldn't possibly be. He didn't necessarily believe Lizzie was the murderer, he just didn't buy the idea that she couldn't be the murderer. At least that's what I get out of his denial.

It could be that Hathaway heard the story from someone somewhere else and embellished it to include Andrew and Lizzie to try to prove a point, or Smalley embellished it for some unknown reason. Either way, it is odd that two people, who supposedly believed Lizzie to be innocent, would tell the story at all.

I've read this story before, as well as George Hathaway's disavowal. I can't understand Smalley's persistance in the matter. It is also peculiar that he would be listed as a witness on the basis of 2nd hand information. Perhaps Mr. Hathaway spun a good story to impress others while in Craigsville, but had to back-peddle without admitting he lied when the police came knocking on his door. There's nothing like a good story especially if your in a hotel, sitting on the piazza (perhaps after a whiskey and a cigar at the bar?).

It's definitely a strange news item!

I was intrigued by the phrase "come home as a corpse." From what I have come across, this particular phrase seems to be associated with going off into a battle and getting killed. Could this phrasing have somehow been a business euphemism of their time...like Lizzie saying she hoped Andrew was unsuccessful in making a particular business deal. When people make a killing today, it doesn't mean they killed anyone...it means they were successful in making money (made a killing in the stock market, etc.).

Any thoughts on this. Remember, the girl had fleas.

I wondered about that too, Nbcatlover, but could find nothing related to that saying in the context it was supposedly used. If she did say it maybe then it was because of a bad mood and she may have gotten mouthy, but I imagine she would not have been the first young victorian woman to spout off.

Hathaway said it was in reference to another family, but coincidentally that daughter didn't want to take meals with him either. Hmmmmm

If it had been a common business euphemism it might not have made the newspapers.

When I first heard that Lizzie had said something like that, my first thought was, it sounded like something a self-centered spoiled brat might say to a parent they were angry with. Right up there with "I hate you" "Drop dead" and "I wish you were dead" or even "wush you'd go away and never come back" If you get my drift......

It does sound rather juvenile, maybe she was 32 going on 10.

Well, a spoiled brat is a spoiled brat, no matter what the age. Emma might have had alot to do with her being that way. Emma was given the responsibility of "taking care of Lizzie" by her dying mother. Emma at the time was pretty young, and maybe went too far with it. A mother's last request could have made Emma a whole lot different in her thinking and actions then what she might have been other-wise. If you could take Emma out of the equation, Lizzie could have probably bonded with Abby, and they would have had a more normal mother-daughter relationship.

I've gotten the same idea from the reaction to Alice telling Hanscomb about the dress burning; "how could you let me do it?" She apparently thought others were responsible for her actions. Emma certainly got carried away with Sarah's request to her if that's what she was doing, Emma was living out Sarah's life in many ways.

I could not find any context for the story either, and not sure I could believe it took place in regard to Andrew and Lizzie. If as was mentioned up thread that the phrase "come home a corpse" was generally used in some way that we are not familiar with then maybe it could be believable. I did wonder at first if could have been used as a way to express concern for his health, as if maybe Andrew was not taking care of himself in Lizzie's opinion.

Hard to even imagine Andrew based on my own perception of him (which could be so off) telling someone anything so personal anyway.

Although Hathaway did deny the story later. So it may be that is it just a story.