Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Most murders are commited because of sex, money, or drugs. Clearly, Money was the motive in this case. What motive would an outside intruder have? Why didn't the prosecutors see that Lizzie wanted Andrew's money? I think they should have done their homework in that department. After all, Andrew was a wealthy man, and who would want his money bad enough to murder him? Lizzie or Emma or both. What do you think?

Didn't Lizzie say something to her friend the night before the murders about how she feared for her father's safety, and that she thought something bad was gonna happen?

Even so, that's not enough to convince me that an "outside person" was the killer-I think Lizzie just put that story out there so that the police would possibly look at other suspects, getting her off the hook.

I don't doubt that prosecutors considered money as a motive-they had to know how wealthy Andrew was. I guess they just couldn't prove it, unfortunately.

Smudgeman wrote:. What motive would an outside intruder have?

Revenge, reprisal, vengeance.

The motive would have to encompass killing both Abby and Andrew, while sparing Lizzie and Bridget.

Well, an outsider- intruder could have done it for the money. It could have been some former or current employee that might have thought that Andrew wasn't paying him enought, or thought was owed to him. Who knows. But you 're right Yooper, the prosecuters weren't doing their homework.. They really should had looked under every stone.

Of course, someone could have committed the murders to make Lizzie look guilty as sin.

However, Lizzie made herself look guilty as sin by:

(1) Arguing with her Father over what he was giving to Abby.
(2) Bad-mouthing Abby, at home and even abroad.
(3) Becoming the focus of suspicion in the daytime robbery of her parents' private quarters.
(4) Attempting to gain poison at a local apothecary.
(5) Spinning tales of her Father's "enemy" to Alice Russell.
(6) Giving odd accounts of her whereabouts in her Inquest testimony, as well as the whereabouts of her stepmother, including the story of a note that no one else saw, nor which anyone else would verify sending.

As per five, if Lizzie truly believed there was an enemy (other than herself), why not tell the police, not Alice Russell?
Why not tell Uncle John?
Oh, that's right: They weren't speaking.

DJ wrote:Of course, someone could have committed the murders to make Lizzie look guilty as sin.

However, Lizzie made herself look guilty as sin by:

(3) Becoming the focus of suspicion in the daytime robbery of her parents' private quarters.

I strongly believe that Lizzie was responsible for that, also....I haven't read anything regarding any forced entry into the house when this happened, so for me, that really points to having been an "inside job." Her alleged shoplifting escapades in Fall River, and her father's attempts to keep the whole thing "hush-hush," doesn't score her any brownie points, either.

Andrew must have suspected, on some level, that his daughter was involved-why else would he have started keeping his and Abby's bedroom door locked? I couldn't imagine sharing the same house with a daughter who would outright steal from me, and having to keep my bedroom door locked because I couldn't trust her-how sad is that?

I remember reading that some of the streetcar tickets stolen were used and traced back to Lizzie, and that's when Andrew called off the investigation. If that's true, then there seems to be an escalation in hostilities present. It progresses from a marked change in Lizzie's attitude toward Abby over the half interest in the house purchased for Abby five years earlier, to a robbery the previous year, to murder at that time. It might be argued that it all had to do with Lizzie, and it was all directed toward Abby.

Yooper wrote:I remember reading that some of the streetcar tickets stolen were used and traced back to Lizzie, and that's when Andrew called off the investigation. If that's true, then there seems to be an escalation in hostilities present. It progresses from a marked change in Lizzie's attitude toward Abby over the half interest in the house purchased for Abby five years earlier, to a robbery the previous year, to murder at that time. It might be argued that it all had to do with Lizzie, and it was all directed toward Abby.

Lizzie was stealing streetcar tickets too?This is the first time I am hearing this. I mean, it doesn't surprise, she'd been shoplifting from stores and even taking money from Abby and Andrew, that's why they kept their rooms locked, but streetcar tickets? Boy, she really must have been a klepto.

I wonder if getting "off the hook" for all these shoplifting allegations possibly gave her the confidence and motivation to commit murder-after all, if she could get away scot-free for shoplifting, maybe she thought she could get away with murder, also.

I can't help thinking Emma had some resentment too towards Abby, but I think Lizzie had plenty of time to plot an plan her actions, and Emma was miserable but chose to ignore the situation. Once Lizzie killed Abby, she had no choice but to kill her father too. Just killing Abby would not get her any money, and I think she snapped. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall that morning to hear what was was said between Abby and Lizzie!

snokkums wrote:

Yooper wrote:I remember reading that some of the streetcar tickets stolen were used and traced back to Lizzie, and that's when Andrew called off the investigation. If that's true, then there seems to be an escalation in hostilities present. It progresses from a marked change in Lizzie's attitude toward Abby over the half interest in the house purchased for Abby five years earlier, to a robbery the previous year, to murder at that time. It might be argued that it all had to do with Lizzie, and it was all directed toward Abby.

Lizzie was stealing streetcar tickets too?This is the first time I am hearing this. I mean, it doesn't surprise, she'd been shoplifting from stores and even taking money from Abby and Andrew, that's why they kept their rooms locked, but streetcar tickets? Boy, she really must have been a klepto.

This was part of what had been taken in the robbery. Lizzie supposedly gave them to someone who was caught using them. Lizzie said something to Alice Russell about the streetcar tokens the night before the murders. Maybe, as long as she was on a rant about what she feared happening...

There are people in the world, then and now, who don't have to have a reason to murder. Well, not one any normal human being will ever be able to comprehend. Sad but all too true.

All fingers point to Lizzie, plain and simple................who else would kill Abby, she had no enemies, Andrew not so much...............

Scott, I think it all boils down to what you just said, who would want to kill Abby? She was killed first and with greater malice than Andrew by the number of blows. It is a lot easier to envision someone being angry with Andrew if he was a hard nosed businessman, perhaps a disgruntled tenant he had evicted or maybe someone he had gotten the better of in some way. It might be argued that an intruder was waiting for Andrew when Abby got in the way, but why wouldn't Lizzie and/or Bridget also be in the way? Could an intruder have dispatched Abby and reasonably assumed he was still safe in the house when Abby hit the floor? Absent reason, would an unreasonable and impulsive intruder spare Bridget and Lizzie? Common sense and reason really have to take a vacation to justify an intruder scenario, so that leaves Lizzie. Who else could have pulled off the murders in exactly that way?

Something else that defies reason and common sense:

An intruder does not want to be discovered.
Therefore, an intruder is going to kill as quickly as possible, then get out of sight.
Therefore, an intruder would have dealt only a few blows to each victim. Probably, no more than two, expecially in the case of Andrew.

Also, an intruder is not going to hang around to hide the murder weapon.

An intruder would more than likely have left the murder weapon in plain sight, wiped down on a rug or a piece of upholstered furniture. It would have been far riskier to carry the weapon out of the house, no matter how well concealed.

Only an "inside jobber" would worry about concealing the weapon (although she shouldn't have, if she had been thinking realistically, which further pointed the finger of blame at her).

That the police searched for the weapon almost right away shows that they suspicioned the murders were an inside job.

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An intruder would have been in a hurry, so as not to be apprehended. If an intruder had been seen by Lizzie or Bridget, it's likely Lizzie or Bridget could have escaped the house, called for help, and made an identification.

The main reason I doubt the intruder theory is the fact that there was no forced entry, and the front door had three locks on it, so I don't see how else an "outside person" would've possibly gained access into the house.

Chichibcc wrote:The main reason I doubt the intruder theory is the fact that there was no forced entry, and the front door had three locks on it, so I don't see how else an "outside person" would've possibly gained access into the house.

I agree with that. The intruder could have gotten in by breaking a window, but someone would have heard the noise because Abby Bridget and Lizzie were coming in and out of the house. One of them would have heard. As for letting the person in, say someone to pay a visit on Andrew, they would have been given themselves away, because the people in the house would have know it was that person they let in that killed Abby and Andrew.

I expect Bridget would have noticed a broken window right away.

Yeah, I think she would too. That's kind of what I was talking about some would have noticed.