Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was reading another post on an analysis of Lizzies' handwriting, and the person said the Lizzi was combative, vain, resentful amongst other things. I am wondering if maybe be resentful, vain and combative could have led Lizzie to murder.

Taken by themselves, I don't think those traits necessarily lead to murder. She would have to be shown to be impulsive and to not know the difference between right and wrong, at least occasionally.

I've always felt she knew what she was doing and that she knew right from wrong. I'm just thinking that being resentful that Andrew was giving property and such to Abby's family.and bieng combative because she didn't like Abby.

I think we have to be careful of the interpretation. The handwriting analysis seems to indicate certain personality traits. The individual has these traits regardless of their current situation. We can't say that because Lizzie was resentful of Andrew and combative toward Abby that her handwriting changed to reflect that. The handwriting would have remained the same after Andrew and Abby were murdered, in fact, for all I know, the sample analyzed may have come from after the murders.

Another thing to consider would be how much of Lizzie's character was made up of these traits? Were some of these traits more dominant than others? If Lizzie was vain how vain was she ? How impulsive? How combative ? How proud ? How disdainful ? How resentful ?

Probably a little bit of each...Watching "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" (1975) made me realize that Lizzie may have been a much more complex person than I had originally thought (and Andrew too, for that matter). The film really made me re-think my views on several aspects of the case.

I guess we will never know exactly what Lizzie's personality traits were. Some people who knew her personally thought she couldn't possibly have killed her parents, others who knew her as well or better implied they wouldn't be surprised if she did. I think people were less than forthcoming with negative information pertaining to the case. How long did Alice Russell keep quiet about the dress burning, four months? This was a major point in the case! Note that it was brought up after it became apparent that there was no consensus as to what Lizzie was wearing the morning of the murders. Alice was referred to as a "traitor" in print at one point in time as a result.

No one wanted to see a woman receive the death penalty at the time. No one wanted to supply any information detrimental to Lizzie's defense and be the one who tipped the scales against Lizzie. There were very few objective witnesses involved. I think any negative personality traits would have been downplayed by most of those who knew her. Taken by themselves, negative personality traits such as pride and vanity don't imply murderous intent, they would only tend to cast Lizzie in a bad light, as well as the informant.

I think that the only way that you can truly tell what a person is like is thru other people and what they say about you. On the one hand, you've got people who said that Lizzie couldn't have killed her parents. On the other hand, there were people said she could have done it.Two sides of a coin.

That's true , but there's more to it. The people who liked her and were treated well by her would have a different opinion of her then the one's who knew her and for what ever reason were not treated well by her. They'd have negative attitudes about her. Imho So you'd have different people saying different things about her. That's just human nature.

I agree, Pam. I'm sure Alice Russell had a very different opinion of her than the people she left money to after her death. As far as that goes, I have a feeling her own sister had a negative opinion of her, after she moved out of Maplecroft.

Bridget couldn't wait to leave the house after the murders, Lizzie's personality wasn't enough to keep her there. Alice Russell seemed to have been dropped as a friend to the Borden sisters after her grand jury testimony, I wonder what she thought of Lizzie's personality? As far as that goes, I wonder what Andrew and Abby thought of Lizzie for the five years previous to the murders?

I'm sure that by that point, Abby probably couldn't stand Lizzie (not that I blame her) and tried to have as little to do with her as possible, considering how horribly Lizzie treated her, and I'm sure Andrew didn't know what to think of her, and just seemed to condone her bad behavior (by covering up her Kleptomaniac tendencies by secretly paying off the merchants, for instance).

Is there an inverse relationship here? It almost seems the more often anyone had to deal with Lizzie, the less they liked her.

Yooper wrote:Is there an inverse relationship here? It almost seems the more often anyone had to deal with Lizzie, the less they liked her.

I would hate if anyone dealt with me, the likely hood that they wouldn't like me would hard for me to deal with. I mean, I know that not everyone is going to like me, but I'd hate it that anyone that met wouldn't like me. That must be an aweful feeling.

What was on Emma's mind when she left Maplecroft for good, Lizzie's sterling personality or her many virtues?

For that matter, why did Abby need to make up the guest room the day of the murders? Was Lizzie incapable of doing that? I get the distinct impression that "Her Highness" couldn't be bothered to help with the housework. Emma testified to the effect that she was responsible for the guest room when she was home, and Lizzie helped her at times. Maybe that' answers the question about why three adult women needed the assistance of a maid, Bridget was there to make up for Lizzie.

The maid was there because there were just things that wasn't done by women of their standing. If that wasn't the case, why as the head of the household wasn't Abby doing the cooking? That would have been her job from the start as substitute mother, and the girls still being too young. If Lizzie was spoiled she didn't get that way by herself, she had help. Once again the finger points to Emma, and even Andrew could have done his share. For that matter, if Abby had tried to win her over, she could have even had a hand in it. I honestly think that if you could have eliminated Emma from that little family, things would have turned out better, for all three of the other's. I don't think Emma's leaving had anything to do with the murders. She was alot older then Lizzie and just couldn't abide with the newer, more modern thinking that Lizzie was involved with. If the murder was the reason she'd have left long before she did. Two sister's living in the same house, with that much of an age difference, wouldn't have much of a chance of working out even today. IF Lizzie killed Andrew and Abby, Emma would have to carry the quilt right along with her. If you know what I mean.

shakiboo wrote: I honestly think that if you could have eliminated Emma from that little family, things would have turned out better, for all three of the others.

I totally agree....things may have turned out more smoothly between Lizzie and and Abby had Emma not been around to manipulate Lizzie when it came to trying to turn her against Abby.

If that was Emma's plan all along, it worked....maybe a little too good, if you know what I mean.

Regardless of their standing, Abby was tending to the guest room in Emma's absence, Lizzie was not, by common practice. I agree, removing Emma from the equation changes the entire dynamic. Lizzie was a young child when Abby came into the family, I think she would have accepted Abby if left to herself. Emma had ample reason to believe in Lizzie's innocence, if she believed otherwise she would have had to admit her part in it, even if only by implication.