Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If you could have just one myth surrounding the case forever debunked what would it be?

Ohhh, good question, Allen! I'll do some thinking on this and post my answer later.

If I could debunk one myth surrounding the case, it would be that Lizzie and Nance O'Neil were lovers. I guess it's only a myth based on personal opinion. Some believe it, some don't. But I don't think there is one shred of proof. I think if anything, Lizzie found a friend who brought a breath of fresh air into her straight laced existence. I think for the first time Lizzie was "living it up." In my opinion LIzzie admired Nance, but she wasn't in love with her.

Right you are Allen:

That one has always annoyed me. People love to make that connection. I don't believe it. Or that Lizzie was Gay. Not that I want her to be straight, just that there is no concrete proof... one way or the other. We know almost/if not/ absolutely nothing about Lizzie Borden's love life.

But that's a great question.

I have so many of them, so I will pick one out of my hat.

After the murders, that Lizzie Borden purchased a mansion.

It was not a mansion. It was a big house on a very small lot.

I don't know if Lizzie was gay or not and I don't care . I think people then as now take a rumor as fact .

That it was very hot that day. Apparently, that wasn't the case. The heat myth may derive from the prelim testimony regarding Lizzie's trip to the barn and what a hot place that would have been.

I would love to be able to clear up the question surrounding the heat that day. It would help put so much into better perspective. The temperature says it wasn't the steaming hot day we all thought, but we don't know the degree of humidity. So if it was really humid it would still feel miserably hot.

Yes:

Good point. It was hot, but not so hot that it was unbearable. The Temperature was probably in the middle 80s. Even with high humidity it still was not that bad. The Humidity thing is played up here in New England.

Below are some weather reports for the period... taken from Rebello's book, LIZZIE BORDEN PAST AND PRESENT.

If you go by the Fall River Daily News report, the temperature did not get out of the seventies.......78.

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Weather Reports

Weather Report, Tuesday evening, August 2, 1892. For RI, MA & CT Showers followed by clearing weather, (Cooler in the interior, easterly winds, shifting north. Fall River Daily Globe

Weather report until Tuesday night, August 2, 1892. Cloudy and unsettled, slightly warmer, variable winds, generally easterly to southerly. Wednesday, fair and cooler. Fall River Daily Herald

Weather report for Wednesday evening, August 3, 1892. For New England, fair, preceded today by showers on the coast, slightly warmer, southeasterly winds. Fall River Daily Globe

Weather report for Wednesday night, August 3, 1892. Con't. cloudy, cool weather, easterly winds becoming variable. Herald office temperature: 8 a.m. 61, 12 noon 66, and 2 p.m. 66. Highest 66, Lowest 60 Fall River Daily Herald

Weather report, Thursday, August 4, 1892, according to the U.S. Signal Service at 7 a.m. 67 and 2 p.m. 83 and 9 p.m. 75

Weather report until Thursday night, August 4, 1892. Fair, preceded by coast showers today,
warmer Thursday, variable winds. Herald office temperature 8 a.m. 66, 12 Noon 72 and 2 p.m. 76
Highest 78, Lowest 63 Fall River Daily Herald

Page 62

Quigley, George, "Lizzie Borden: Hot or Not?, The Temperature of August 4, 1892," Tribune, Fall River, MA, April 26, 1996: 10.
Masterton, William L., "Weather We Don't: Just How Hot Was It?" Lizzie Borden Quarterly, vol. 1, no. 1, January / 1997: 6. .
Schley-Ulrich, William, "Weather We Don't: Just How Hot Was It?" Lizzie Borden Quarterly, vol. 4, no. 1, January / 1997: 6.

Excellent documentation on the temperature on August 4, 1892, was presented. A reproduction of the U.S. Weather Service document was included by Mr. Maynard F. Bertolet, editor of the Lizzie Borden Quarterly. Given the documentation, it can be recorded that the murders were not committed on a sweltering hot day.

Without knowing the humidity I wouldn't be comfortable for certain saying it didn't feel sweltering. Humidity can make it feel miserable and hotter than the actual temp. There are witnesses that stated the day was very hot and close. Without actually being there I'm not sure there is any way to actually know. Rebello reports the weather from several sources, but also as a note on page 62 states there was no information to determine the humidity.

"Humans are sensitive to humid air because the human body uses evaporative cooling as the primary mechanism to regulate temperature. Under humid conditions, the rate at which perspiration evaporates on the skin is lower than it would be under arid conditions. Because humans perceive the rate of heat transfer from the body rather than temperature itself,[6] we feel warmer when the relative humidity is high than when it is low."

This is a handy little site that shows how to tell what the "feels like" temp is based on temp and humidity. I'm not really concerned with what the weather was like on Tuesday or Wednesday, only that fateful Thursday. At 2pm the temp was listed as 83 degrees. At 60% relative humidity it feels like 85.9. At 80% relative humidity it feels like 91.3. Just some food for thought.

http://www.maineharbors.com/weather/convert3.htm

Another thing to take into consideration is the clothing worn at the time. Men: shirt, tie, pants, vest, overcoat, hat... Women: underskirts, dress (or two piece), possibly drawers, hat, shawl... I think it's hard for us to imagine today wearing two or three layers of clothing in 80 degree weather.

I would also deduce that if it had rained for two days prior, that the humidity levels could be significant with higher temps. I noticed one of the photos I believe taken the day of the crimes (looking south down 2nd St. toward the Borden house), there were deep ruts along the side of the road, that appeared to be from carriages / wagon teams rolling through mud and/or pooled water, which would show it rained in recent days.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/galleries ... st1892.htm

I think it's safe to say that it was not unnaturally hot that day. Certainly not for August. That seems to be what is implied in many accounts. At some level, there is almost a subliminal sexual element to the story about the excessive heat. A sweaty temptress wielding an axe sans clothing is heady stuff for Victorian men to ponder. It just had to be true. Even the Elizabeth Montgomery film plays that up.

LouManDude wrote:Another thing to take into consideration is the clothing worn at the time. Men: shirt, tie, pants, vest, overcoat, hat... Women: underskirts, dress (or two piece), possibly drawers, hat, shawl... I think it's hard for us to imagine today wearing two or three layers of clothing in 80 degree weather.

For women, we would have a chemise, drawers, then corset, then a corset cover, petticoat, long sleeved high necked dress, hat (straw for summer)....not to mention no AC or even fans. Of course they were used to it, but even wearing shorts and tee shirt I would be uncomfortable...especially if the humidity was high. So it could possibly feel uncomfortably warm due to the excessive number of garments worn.

I would like to debunk the mysterious note that Abby had supposedly received that morning regarding someone being ill. No one ever found the note. Neither the person who delivered it nor the person who sent it came forward to validate the existents of a note. Wasn’t there a cash reward for anyone coming forward in this matter?

Yes:

Another is that Andrew Borden was a miser.

Ture, he was frugal, and probably a little to prudent and austere with his money. But, not as bad as most writers love to boast.

I think he was good to his daughters.

After all, he gave them stock in companies. He gave them the old ferry street home. When was the last time your parents gave you a home? Then, when they didn't want it, he bought it back and gave them cash.

Paid for Lizzie's tour of Europe—three months. Purchased central heating system when it was in it's infancy.

The one thing Andrew Borden did wrong was not move to the Highland area and live in a proper residence for a man of his means.

But he was not as bad as people make him out to be.

The reason he was killed was a motive much greater than money. Weather it was Abby or the fear Borden leaving it all to her.

Yes, it could have been about money.

Buy, not because Andrew Jackson Borden was a miser.

Yes:

Not to hog the thread........but

What the heck:

Another myth is that 92 Second Street (230 today) was a railroad flat.

It was not.

The term railroad flat is very misunderstood by many of the Borden writers, such as Kent, Radin, Speiring, Lincoln, etc.

Radin was one of the first, if not the earliest writer to mention the "railroad Flat." All the other writers probably just copied him—extending the folklore, the error, the inaccuracy, oversight. No excuse.

Wrong.

The Borden House was not made up of two railroad flat apartments when Borden purchased it.

A railroad flat has a common hallway. All rooms are off that hallway. Writers like to add that: "When Andrew bought it, it was made up of two little identical tenement railroad flats, one above the other. It had no space to be wasted on hallways; the rooms simply opened into one another.
As Lincoln placed it.

In fact, it's the house with the hallway (as Lincoln and others mention) that is more likely to be a railroad flat.

A shotgun shack has a railroad flat floor plan. One room does lead to another, but in a row. Like going from one railroad car to another. But once you expand it and add rooms to the left or right of the ones running down the center, it ceases being a railroad flat.

Fifty to sixty percent of the homes in fall river are similar in style inside to the Borden place. I'm talking about the average three decker.

Most homes have rooms that lead one to another. (older homes, mostly)

Myth: That the Borden home was a Railroad Flat. No, it was not.

A couple others: that Andrew was a mortician and chopped the legs off his taller clients to fit them into his coffins. Lizzie killed a cat. Also one from the movie about Andrew massacring Lizzie's pigeons. I believe those are all myths.

Taking the legs off to make the body fit. That's a good one.

Many of these stories were probably printed in newspapers when someone who knew the Bordens gave their dubious opinion.

The cat one may be a good example.

Agnes de Mille had much fault in spreading the cat sorties.

Below is an account from her book A DANCE OF DEATH.


There were no pets of any kind in the Borden house---perhaps Papa forbade them---but Lizzie gave out she was fond of all dumb helpless creatures, not frogs particularly, of course. The following scene, however, was recounted by the daughter of the Borden's caretaker farmer. Walking and chatting with Lizzie about one of Mr. Borden's farms, he noticed a cat which kept rubbing against Lizzie's skirt. It must have annoyed the older woman for she suddenly leaned down, grabbed the cat by the tail, swung it twice around her head at arm's length, and let it fly, screeching and clawing, in an arc about fifty feet away. Not one whit out of breath, she resumed conversation with her wide-eyed companion. In fairness, however, it must be recounted that a small cat on another farm, hurt by a scythe while the farmer cut grass, drew

40 whacks! Myth.

The whole epilepsy theory...............

Yes:

The Epilepsy scenario was first brought up by Victoria Lincoln, in her book, A PRIVATE DISGRACE. I believe she was the only one to claim this.

In her book, VICKY attempts to make a clinical case for those who murder while under a epileptic seizure.

During the turn of the 20th century, many tried to make the connection between epileptic seizures and crime. There has been some notable cases on record in that respect.

But there is no proof that someone under the influence of epilepsy would commit a crime, and modern studies dismiss it. I have included a recent study to a link about epilepsy and crime.

Below is one of the quotes from Lincoln's book.

Lizzie Borden did not kill her parents because she had an ambulatory seizure of temporal epilepsy. But all evidence indicates that she killed her stepmother during one.


http://www.gregjoneslawblog.com/study-f ... 1/12/2012/

I do believe that the Borden house may have been two apartments at one time. I get this impression from Emma's trial testimony.

Yes:

It was indeed 2 apartments. Allen. I dont' think I made myself clear enough in my post above and gave the wrong impression.

I said:

"The Borden House was not made up of two railroad flat apartments when Borden purchased it."


What I meant to say was that they were not railroad Flats. They were average Fall River apartments. Not railroad flats. But there was indeed two apartments when Borden purchased the building and he changed it into a single family home.



There was a story by Michael Brimbau in the 2009 fall copy of the Hatchet called, 92 Second Street: Profile of the House of Murder, which deals with the history of the building and its owner Charles Trafton, the original occupant and builder.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.....

Thanks MB. I have not read that article. I guess I took the post in the broader sense of it was never apartments. My mistake. I will have to give the article a read.

Yes:

No Problamo Allen.

The article is based on the house with a little history about Charles Trafton.

I was saddened when the people at 92 Second Street took down the historical placard nailed to the house proclaiming it as the "Charles Trafton House" replacing it with one for the Bordens. As it is mentioned in the article, it should be known as the "Trafton and Borden House".

Researching Charles Trafton I uncovered what was probably an interesting guy. He had one son who died at the age of 10 days. Eight years later his wife died leaving him a widower for the next 15 years. His wife died the year Emma Borden was born.

Then he marries 15 years later to a woman who was 23 years younger. (he was 61, she 38) On Christmas Eve, no less.

After he died, she remarried a 3rd time. Interestingly, when she died, having been married 3 times, the 3rd to a barber from Colorado, she was buried with Trafton, Trafton's first wife, his baby and his maid, all in one plot in fall river's north end burial ground.

Yes, Hey:

Talking about the house at 92 Second Street, (Now 230 Second Street)

Another myth is that the house was small and confining, and the walls were paper thin.

Not true, not ture, not true, unless you think a house of just about 2300 sq. ft. is small. Well over 3000 sq. ft. if you count the third level. Or if you think sheetrock, drywall, wallboard is more sound proof than hard lat and plaster, used in the 19th century.

The only real serious problem with it was the bedroom arrangement. Emma having to go through Lizzie's room to get to her's and the door between Andrew's room and Lizzie's.

Taking the door out and building a wall there would have been a simple solution. And as for Emma. The guest bedroom should have been given to her. They had about 1000 square feet of floor space on the third floor. They could have made a guest room up there. After all; who else do you remember staying in the guest room aside from Morse?

I think the one I would like to have debuked too is the one that Andrew was very miserly and not very well liked. I mean, he might not have endeared himself to people and he was frugal, but people did respect him. And he definately made money. You don't make money by spending it. The other one is that LIzzie was gay. No one really knows if she was gay or not. If she was, so what.

Yes:

In the post above I had asked a somewhat rhetorical question, in trying to make a point. Off the cuff, without really thinking about it.

Where I said: "After all; who else do you remember staying in the guest room aside from Morse?"

I still contend that Emma should have been given the guest room and visitors or callers could have stayed on the 3rd level. A comfortable space could have been made to accommodate guests there.

By casually probing this machine, I came across some proof that, in stating what I did, I was incorrect. (Incorrect sounds so much smarter than "worng".)

I found some proof given by a student/teacher of Bordenia (not on this forum) that someone did indeed stay in the guest room other then John Morse.

Through testimony given in court, the guest room was used by Mary Raymond, dressmaker, that she had stayed at the house for several weeks while making dresses.

Q. Do you remember at that time making a Bedford cord dress?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before I pass to that I will ask you what time you went there?
A. In May.

Q. What time in May?
A. The first week in May. I was there three weeks.

Unless of course she slept down in the basement by the boiler or in the dusty barn with the fishing sinkers. You think?

There may have been some breech of victorian etiquette putting a guest room on the third floor with the maid's room. I don't think it would have been considered proper to ask a guest with any social standing to stay in what for all intents and purposes could have been called the servants quarters on the third floor. Even after the murders nobody thought of sleeping on the third floor. Alice Russell slept in the Borden's bedroom, and John Morse continued to sleep in the guest room. Of course, John Morse had slept up there on occassion, but he was family. And Emma admitted he only slept up there when they were using the guest room to sew. The only other person I can find who slept on the third floor was the farm hand who sometimes came over from Swansea to do chores around the house. There could have been the whispers, "Those Borden's had me sleep upstairs with the maid."

Yes:

You've got me there Allen.

What you say makes all the sense in the world. Don't know what I was thinking. (which is probably most of the time )

I suppose my thinking was not very Victorian.

Yes, it would be very improper to place a guest on the third floor with the maid, and would not have been done. Still, it seems a shame to have that wonderful large guest room empty most of the time, while 40+ year old Emma slept in that closet of a room.

As I mentioned many times in the past, I worked in many old houses in fall river. At that time, many of them still had small rooms on the third floor—no plumbing or electricity. The room arrangement was basically the same in each one. You would get to the top of the stairs and there would be a long corridor with rooms to the left and right. These were used for boarders.

In the early 70s many of these third floor levels were being converted into apartments. I was sent to work and wire them. Back then many existed, but probably almost none left today.

LouManDude wrote:Another thing to take into consideration is the clothing worn at the time. Men: shirt, tie, pants, vest, overcoat, hat... Women: underskirts, dress (or two piece), possibly drawers, hat, shawl... I think it's hard for us to imagine today wearing two or three layers of clothing in 80 degree weather.

I would also deduce that if it had rained for two days prior, that the humidity levels could be significant with higher temps. I noticed one of the photos I believe taken the day of the crimes (looking south down 2nd St. toward the Borden house), there were deep ruts along the side of the road, that appeared to be from carriages / wagon teams rolling through mud and/or pooled water, which would show it rained in recent days.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/galleries ... st1892.htm

In Washington DC when we have any humidity is hellish. So I believe that the weather does play a part in people's psychics and disposition, dark gray days are notorious for affecting people with depression. So heat and humidity puts people on edge.

I totally agree, lizzieMoonlight. I know for a fact that cold, rainy days affect people who have arthritics; this type of weather is very painful for them.