Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I know that relationships change over time,but I am curious about one thin. I know that after the trial, Emma and lizzie lived together at Maplecroft for a time. After a time, Emma moved out, never to talk or see Lizzie again. For two sisters, who seemed to be close all their lives, this seems to be rather abrupt. I am thinking that they weren't as close as they wanted everyone to see and believe. Maybe they weren't that close to begin with.

What do you all think.

If Abby had been an adversary, it would have tended to unite Lizzie and Emma while they lived in the same household. It could be that Andrew, and a bad relationship with Abby, were all the girls had in common.

Or it could be that Lizzie finally got fed up with her bossy, controlling big sister and told Emma to shut up and get off her back. My impression of Emma has always been that she was one of those quiet, mousy types who are experts at passive-agressive manipulation.

Or possibly that the two sisters really did have a close relationship and it simply cracked under the strain of the trial and the social ostracism that followed.

I think Lizzie and Emma were very close, as a mother/daughter would be but if the story is correct, Emma left in a hurry one night either during or after a party Lizzie hosted for Nance O'Neil and company. Something happened during that evening or it was the proverbial "last straw" that forced Emma from that home. I think Lizzie's behavior embarrassed Emma beyond her bounds of decency and she didn't want to be associated with whatever was going on there. She nearly disappeared off the face of society as a whole, even hiding her identity behind the two women whom she resided with in New Hampshire. I really think it was Lizzie's relationship with Nance O'Neil, intimate or otherwise, that caused the split between the sisters.

I think that neither of the were all that close, they just didn't like thier stepmother and didn't like thier father being so tight with the money. But I don't think they were as close as they wanted everyone to believe.

Snokkums, you may be right. Lizzie looked up to Emma as a mother figure, which could go either way...bring them closer or push them apart when they no longer had a common enemy...but I do think Lizzie's flamboyant parties and "questionable" personal associates is what drove Emma away.

There was a 12 year age difference and Lizzie looked up to Emma as more of a mother which doesn't always create closeness. Younger siblings often resent older ones who they see as being handed authority by parents. I agree that they had common ground in how Andrew controlled the money and that played a major part in any closeness.

This is an interesting point to ponder.

I think myk7753 may have hit on something new, at least for me, when he points out that Emma went underground to a point when she chose to live in the house of the two women in New Hampshire. We can trace her living quarters pretty well from when she left Maplecroft until she died, and she was always living with someone. When she lived at the Minden Apartments, as written about in Kat Koorey's fabulous article in "The Hatchet" about Emma after Maplecroft, one of her Gardner cousins had an apartment there too. I can't remember the exact facts, but he might have put her apartment in his name.

But she didn't want to draw attention to herself and didn't want people to know who or where she was. That is so opposite from Lizzie. Maybe Emma always disliked the fact that Lizzie lived right there in Fall River and everyone knew where - and knew Emma lived there too. So every time Lizzie did anything that brought any attention to her, Emma must have cringed. It would fit her profile that we all have been working on all these years.

I think there is truth in that party she gave for Nance & Co. It's in the papers back then. I don't know if it was a week-long party like I've seen mentioned in print, but it was 'Theatah People' which was something frowned upon by Society in the old days.

Whatever it was that caused the split Emma went to her minister, who agreed that Emma must leave Maplecroft at once. I don't know if just the party would be that critical. Maybe Emma was so upset, she was all worked up and the minister thought for her own peace of mind she should leave. Or maybe there's something else that goes along with it that was that 'last straw'. Maybe Emma saw something really awful at that party.

I wonder if one would learn any more about why Emma left Lizzie if one were lucky enough to see correspondence of the Buck sisters? Isn't that the first place Emma fled to?

Albanyguy, I totally agree with you that Emma was probably passive-aggressive. And their relationship cracking under the strain I think could be what happened.

As I understand it, Baby Lizzie took to Abby from the start and probably loved her and called her "Mother" until that property fiasco in 1887. I think Lizzie was too little for Emma to turn her against this kind woman who was a comforting mother figure. All I can say about a Lizzie/Abby feud from all I've studied was that in 1887 Emma (who disliked Abby more than Lizzie and never called her 'mother' and went off to boarding school for a bit) finally got her chance to pull Lizzie to her side, and it was downhill for Lizzie/"Mrs Borden" from then on.

So, yes, I tend to agree with you, Snookums - that 'the girls' were never really close. If they were, how could they stay away from each other for the rest of their lives? That's really extreme.

Whatever caused Emma to leave Maplecroft, the solution to the problem was absolute and permanent. Emma had endured whatever notoriety went along with being Lizzie's sister from 1893 until she left Maplecroft. Being the sister of someone still believed to be a murderess by many wasn't enough to deter Emma. But, being the sister of someone still believed to be a murderess who also was now giving parties on The Hill for theater people might have been beyond the pale. I wonder if Emma was consulted beforehand about the party, or if Lizzie surprised Emma with it? Did Emma object beforehand and Lizzie had the party in spite of her? Was Lizzie's behavior consistent with Emma's apparent wishes for a quiet existence in an upper-class neighborhood?

I have a tendacy to believe that they weren't close to begin with, they had a united front where Abby was concerened. Don't think liked her. Emma on the stand point of that Abby was taking over and Lizzie, looking up to her sister as a mother figure, was that Abby was moving in on their mother. And,I think, that LIzzie wanted to be acceted, went to all kinds of measure to get approval, much to Emmas dismay. Emma was the quiet one,not to draw attention,LIzzie wanted acceptance. She wasn't getting that from her family. I think if her family was paying attention too her, her actions would have been different.

Maybe someone was belly dancing in a provocative way or a male in tights sliding frontwards down the bannister could send Emma into a major tizzy. Perhaps a bit of boozing, or opium ? Bohemians tended to enjoy life to the fullest.

I think you are right stargazer, Emma just wasn't the hang loose kinda gal. But I still have a tendacy to think that they weren't close as eveyone assumes. I do think they did care deeply for each other.

Maybe she'd just had enough of trying to pretend Lizzie was 100% innocent, or that her little sister was justified in killing the old folks.

I think that Emma really believed that Lizzie did kill the parents, she just didn't want to believe it. I do think she was doing the sisterly thing and supported her thru the trial.

I think that Emma may also have felt some twinges of guilt over the murders herself. I do NOT believe that she was in any way involved in planning, commiting or covering up the crimes, but she was morally culpable for contributing to (perhaps instigating) the tension that festered within the family for years before the murders. Years of bickering, tattling, backbiting, endlessly complaining to Lizzie about how "that woman" Abby had taken their mother's place and was probably plotting to drive them both out and keep Papa and his money all to herself, never realizing that she was creating a ticking time bomb that would blow up and destroy their little world.

When Emma got the news that day in Fairhaven that Andrew and Abby were dead, I think it came as a complete shock. Riding home on the train, she must have hoped against hope that it would all turn out to be some horrible accident or that they were killed by a passing stranger. But when she got home that evening and took the lay of the land, she must have instantly known the truth: that while Lizzie had literally swung the ax, it was Emma who had metaphorically placed it in her hands. "What have I done? I never meant for it to come to this!"

I doubt if the two of them ever discussed it. Remember how at the end of the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, Emma says to Lizzie "I am going to ask you this just one time. Did you kill Father?" and Lizzie just stands there without answering? I don't think such a scene ever took place in real life. There was no need. Emma knew and Lizzie knew she knew. What more was there to say?

Albanyguy wrote:I think that Emma may also have felt some twinges of guilt over the murders herself. I do NOT believe that she was in any way involved in planning, commiting or covering up the crimes, but she was morally culpable for contributing to (perhaps instigating) the tension that festered within the family for years before the murders. Years of bickering, tattling, backbiting, endlessly complaining to Lizzie about how "that woman" Abby had taken their mother's place and was probably plotting to drive them both out and keep Papa and his money all to herself, never realizing that she was creating a ticking time bomb that would blow up and destroy their little world.

When Emma got the news that day in Fairhaven that Andrew and Abby were dead, I think it came as a complete shock. Riding home on the train, she must have hoped against hope that it would all turn out to be some horrible accident or that they were killed by a passing stranger. But when she got home that evening and took the lay of the land, she must have instantly known the truth: that while Lizzie had literally swung the ax, it was Emma who had metaphorically placed it in her hands. "What have I done? I never meant for it to come to this!"

I doubt if the two of them ever discussed it. Remember how at the end of the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, Emma says to Lizzie "I am going to ask you this just one time. Did you kill Father?" and Lizzie just stands there without answering? I don't think such a scene ever took place in real life. There was no need. Emma knew and Lizzie knew she knew. What more was there to say?

I think you make a lot of excellent points, Albanyguy. Just one thing: I know the line you quoted from the movie was fictional. But I do remember reading in one of my Borden books about a conversation late in life between Emma and a reporter--a woman reporter if I recall correctly. Emma was still, after all those years (and with apparently no contact with Lizzie for all that time) insisting upon Lizzie's innocence. She seemed to be sincere, altho whether she really believed in Lizzie's innocence, or desperately still wanted to convince herself/the world is another question....One thing that sticks in my mind is Emma stating that while they were living together at Maplecroft, Lizzie assured her repeatedly that she (Lizzie) had had nothing whatever to do with the murders. And Emma said emphatically that she believed her sister.

Whether she actually did or not is another question. (I would also wonder, if I were Emma, why Lizzie felt it necessary to insist repeatedly that she was innocent? Wouldn't one heartfelt denial be enough for most big sisters?? )

When Emma left Maplecroft, what year was it? Was it during prohibition? In the interview she gave to a newspaper or magazine (can't remember which) she states at first that she "refuses to talk about" why she left, then proceeds to give titillating details..."I waited until it became unbearable." and she conferred with her minister and he agreed she must leave immediately. Not that it would be a good idea for she and her sister to come in and talk to him. I find it interesting that the good Reverend didn't want to try and "save" Miss Lizzie from whatever sinfulness she was falling into.

My guess? Alcohol consumption (which I actually doubt; Miss Lizzie was a stanch member of the Temperance Society, and there is no record EVER of her imbibing in strong drink even once in her lifetimes...someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Second reason? A lesbian relationship...possible with Nance O'Neil. THAT would have completely freaked Emma out and be seen by the Reverend as unnatural and completely evil. Something to flee from. Even then, IF this was the case, I am surprised that there wasn't an attempt to talk to Lizzie or appeal for her to stop her behavior and return to the church.

Or it might be that there were members of the theater group Lizzie was palling around with that were acting in ways that seemed loose and evil to Emma and the Rev...men kissing men, or acting flamboyantly. Wonder if any of them smoked cigarettes (or any other kind of interesting smokables!) and if that would have been scene as worthy of Emma parting company with her.

We may never know the real reason unless someone discovers letters or diaries that reveal what either sister was thinking. It does seem pretty dramatic that they would part and NEVER speak to each other or see each other again. For many years, they were all each other had.

One poster wrote about Lizzie being sick of Emma's bossing her around. I thought that of the two, Lizzie was the more domineering one, and Emma a rather timid woman. Thoughts?