Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If Abby had been intending to buy a new bedspread for the guest bedroom, and indeed measuring for one that a.m., was she feeling particularly flush, for some reason?

After all, she had to purchase all household goods out of her weekly allowance, something about which she complained on occasion, to outsiders.

It would seem such an item would eat up all, if not more than all, of a week's allowance.

Why indulge in a seemingly unnecessary extravagance?

Was she expecting to come into some sort of windfall?

A windfall that had Lizzie and Emma seeing red?

I never heard this before, where did you get this idea??

Some accounts say Abby was merely making the bed; others say she was measuring for a new spread.
If so, it would have been a bit of an extravagance out of her $4/weekly allowance/household budget.
When people purchase extravagances, they are usually coming into some extra money.
Was wondering if that could be the case with Abby, and, if so, if it could well be a matter
of Andrew bestowing upon her some funds that made her feel flush, but at the same time would
also have been an issue with Lizzie and Emma.

IOW: Could this have been a sign of Abby coming into something big?

Something drove Emma out of the house. She was not in the habit of leaving for extended vacations.
By the same token, something drove Lizzie back to the house that early August. She was supposed to
be vacationing with friends at Marion. She never even made it there; rather, she aborted her trip
at New Bedford, where she spent a few days, then returned. Why?

Beach trip vs. No. 92? What drove her back to the household in which she had so many problems?

Well, $4 went a lot farther back then than it does now. I'd have to check my 1892 Sears Roebuck catalog for the exact price, but a bedspread could be had relatively reasonably. I don't think it really would have been considered an extravagance...more like moving the "good" bedspread to Andrew and Abby's room and getting a new one for the guest room. Not knowing how much of the $4 weekly Abby actually spent, it would be hard to know if it took awhile to save up for something, or if she could generally have enough on hand to get what she wanted. The guest room would have been fitted up with the best, so it's reasonable she would replace a spread that might be showing some wear...or maybe she just had a new style in mind (we women redecorate all the time!!)

Why not just burn that ratty old bedspread in the stove and force the old goat to shell out for a new one? Seriously, they have the bedspread that was on the bed that day, I think at the Historical Society if I'm not mistaken. Has anyone seen it firsthand? That might indicate whether or not it needed replacing.

There is no point to this discussion really. Whether Abby was changing the spread or measuring it or anything else has no effect on the crime or the case.

Well Steve you can have your opinion that there is no point to the conversation. The easiest thing to do would be stop following the thread and move onto something you think you are interested in.

Heck, the bedspread doesn't look all that bad today-- what say any one of you who have seen it on display?

I also wonder about Lizzie's assertion, in Inquest testimony, that visitors were expected at the house on Monday, the 8th. No one ever came forward and said they were invited. The subject was curiously never pursued by the prosecution, either with Lizzie or Bridget, who could have known something.

I don't believe Lizzie could have murdered Abby without cornering her in that bedroom, where no one was likely to find her body for the time being.

(If Lizzie had intruded on Abby in Abby's bedroom, Abby would have been immediately suspicious and alert and more likely to put up a defense. Even scream for Bridget. No way would Lizzie have lured her into Lizzie's room.)

I have a nagging feeling Abby was seduced, if you will, into that room on some pretext having to do with the bedspread.

Did someone in the household lie about the company coming to get Abby into the room? Lizzie's lies seem to be tied in with other lies, or figments of truth.

For instance: "Mrs. Borden, Emma writes that she will be arriving Monday with Cousin So-and-So. You know, there really ought to be a new spread on that bed. Why don't you measure for a new one, while I fetch the laundry and bring it up to the room?"

That way, Abby would have been EXPECTING Lizzie to enter the room, and would have been completely off-guard and vulnerable.

DJ Wrote:
I also wonder about Lizzie's assertion, in Inquest testimony, that visitors were expected at the house on Monday, the 8th. No one ever came forward and said they were invited. The subject was curiously never pursued by the prosecution, either with Lizzie or Bridget, who could have known something.


Maybe the mysterious "visitors" that Lizzie testified about never got a chance to get an invitation from Mr. and Mrs. Borden, just maybe the mention of the visitors coming is what set Lizzie off? Possibly Abby and Andrew had intended on sending out invitations or a "note" that day? Or maybe it is just a part of the web of lies Lizzie told to cover her tracks.

I have often wondered if Lizzie made these assertions about visitors coming to the stay to give Abby a reason for being up in the guestroom. Did she lure her up there somehow? Uncle John Morse was staying at the house, and the room would probably be tidied up after he had gone anyway. But Abby probably would have waited until he WAS gone and have been sure he was not planning to stay longer. So I am not so sure she would have been up there tidying up after Uncle John just yet.

It would seem Abby was expecting company, real or imagined (lied about), if she was measuring for a new spread.

It's a wonder she wasn't in bed herself that a.m., having believed herself poisoned two days before.

Lizzie had to have her cornered in that room at just the right moment, and the more occupied Abby would be, the better.

Hence my theory-- Lizzie makes up a story about co. coming (a young lady from the Marion group, a cousin Emma has been visiting), that there ought to be a new bedspread. Maybe Lizzie even gets magnanimous, and offers to pay for all or part of it. (Especially if said person was Lizzie's alleged co.) Would Abby please measure? Lizzie will join her in a few minutes....

Then, the lie Lizzie may have told Abby, about co. coming, resurfaces during her Inquest testimony. Just slips out. Maybe Lizzie is so worn down by the prosecution, she lets her fib slip.

If Abby's presence in the guest room was not either foreseen or requested by Lizzie, and if the murder weapon was ordinarily kept in another part of the house, then it would be necessary for Lizzie to notice Abby in the guest room, retrieve the hatchet from wherever it was kept while hoping Abby remained in the guest room, and return to kill Abby. If the hatchet was kept in the basement or some distance from the guest room, that was a long chance and it depended upon Abby's reason for being in the guest room. If Abby was only there to change a couple of pillowcases, it probably wouldn't allow enough time to retrieve the hatchet. It makes a bit more sense for the hatchet to be upstairs or in Lizzie's possession beforehand, which implies that Abby would have to be lured to the room. I can think of no reason for a hatchet to be kept upstairs as a matter of course or common practice, so it had to be there for a singular purpose.

Yes, if you give the matter some thought, the murder of Abby would have required some planning.
In other words, it was probably premeditated.
An intruder would have to have been mighty lucky, indeed, to have caught Abby where she was (without being seen or heard by Lizzie or Bridget), then to have caught Andrew where he was, an hour-plus later, without being seen or heard by Lizzie or Bridget in the interim, or during the act.
Also, why run outside with a bloody hatchet? Assuming a murderer would have chosen a run-of-the-mill murder weapon, with no identifying markings, it would have made more sense to leave the weapon at the scene.
Or, to have appropriated a hatchet from the household collection, and leave it at the scene.
Also, that Abby scarcely seems to notice that her murderer is upon her argues for the notion that she was expecting someone to enter the room while she was in it.

Lizzie even puts herself upstairs basting a loop on a sleeve that morning, when she was probably sharpening a blade or hiding a dress. She was rather busy with all the basting, ironing, reading, etc. I wonder why she was not asked to produce any sewing materials or the supposed garment? It does seem that Abby would have to have been lured to the guest room, I don't see her going up there to clean anything, if Uncle John was coming back.

I've always wondered why no one asked her where she got the sewing materials to baste the loop she said she was working on. The sewing machine was in the Morse room, so wouldn't Lizzie have had to see Abby lying there when she went in to get a needle and thread?

I'm afraid I don't know much about sewing, what is meant by basting a loop on a sleeve? I've always just assumed it was something which could be done by hand, without the sewing machine. I suppose Lizzie could have kept a small sewing kit in her room, but why? If the sewing was ordinarily done in the guest room, it makes more sense to keep all the sewing stuff in there, just a few steps away.

Well, basting would be to tack or hand-sew something. Loops of material were made and sewn onto dresses to close buttons...instead of a buttonhole. They were made out of the same material the garment was made of, or they could be a fine satin cord or braid. Unless a loop was sewn into the seam while a seam was being sewn on the sewing machine, a loop would have generally been sewn on by hand. I'm sure it was common for them to come loose, just like buttons do. I think most ladies probably kept a small sewing basket handy in her room. I have a charming little round, flat, covered sewing basket that belonged to my great-grandmothers sister, which would have been from the same era as Lizzie. Generally small scissors, spools of thread, needles, thimble, pins would be kept handy for any small clothing repairs.

Thanks, Sally! So the loop more or less replaced the buttonhole in current use. I expect that was a very common repair and small, portable sewing kits might have been more necessary at the time as a result.

Allen said:
I have often wondered if Lizzie made these assertions about visitors coming to the stay to give Abby a reason for being up in the guestroom. Did she lure her up there somehow? Uncle John Morse was staying at the house, and the room would probably be tidied up after he had gone anyway. But Abby probably would have waited until he WAS gone and have been sure he was not planning to stay longer. So I am not so sure she would have been up there tidying up after Uncle John just yet.


I have also wondered why Abby was in the guest room as well. If John satyed in the room the night before and was coming back that day, as a good guest, would he have made up his own bed? Maybe Lizzie was in the guest room, and asked Abby to come up there to help her find her sewing equipment to baste a loop. She could have said she couldn't find it to lure Abby up there, or maybe she was chased upstairs. I really don't see why Abby would be up there? And wasn't it Lizzie who claimed that the guests were coming? I don't recall Briget ever mentioning it.

This is an area of the house that Abby seems to have little reason to be in. Lizzie and Emma claimed that Abby kept some of her belongings in a drawer in the guestroom. These items don't seem to me to be of any immediate importance on the day of the murders.

Maybe Lizzie didn't plan on murdering Abby in the guest room, but figured she would simply "do the deed" in whatever part of the house presented itself most easily.

Given John Morse's reputation as a rugged type of guy, I can easily see him NOT making up his bed in the morning. He didn't strike me as someone familiar with the nuances of etiquette.

The whole story about guests...was it ever confirmed by Bridgette or Emma? Was Morse questioned about it? (I can see Abby being concerned that he might overstay his welcome, and either she or Andrew might have mentioned to him that company was coming, so it would be better if this particular visit be brief.)

I think Abby ensured her home was in order at all times and it isn't at all hard (for me) to fathom her going up to check the room a house guest spent the previous night in. I certainly do check the room my guests spend the night in, even if they are spending another night.

There has always been speculation that a secret was afoot-- and maybe Abby was snooping through John's things?

I think there was a lot going on in that house, 'behind the scenes' and Lizzie was probably not responsible or at the center of all of it.

Well, her conversation with Alice Russell the night before tends to make me believe Lizzie was well aware of the happenings in the household. After all, she did not work, was home most of the time, and probably eavesdropped on many a conversation between Abby, Father, and Morse. She mentioned to Alice that everyone was sick, and was afraid something would happen to her Father (No mention of Abby). It would be hard to keep a secret in a household that had no electricity, no internet, phone, no TV distractions, radio, etc. I am sure it was very quiet most of the time and since Lizzie did not spend alot of time with the elder Bordens, I bet she (spied) on them quite a bit. Plus Lizzie was a lady of leisure, she had all the time in the world to make things her business.

AA-- Morse claimed he didn't bring anything with him (oh, except for that letter from Mr. Borden, so conveniently stashed in his coat pocket), so I doubt Abby was snooping after him. Besides, he says he was "on the fence" about coming back for dinner that day (apparently he decided to do so), speaking to Mr. B at the back door before he, JVM, departed.

I believe Bridget overheard this and corroborated it.

IOW: Morse is undecided about returning for dinner, although Mr. B has asked him.

My impression is that he was not returning for another night, and would have taken whatever with him, even if he was lying like a rug and brought a bag. I don't know if you ever saw the paranormal show with a psychic who claimed Morse brought the murder weapon with him! (For Lizzie.)

Well, we'll never know if Morse and Lizzie didn't speak, or if they stayed up all night, conspiring like a den of thieves. After all, they were just across the landing from one another. Would have been easy-peasy.

Still, AA, I like your thinking. Abby could have felt something was afoot, and maybe she suspected Lizzie was conspiring with JVM-- after all, they were "blood."

I get the impression that Abby just tolerated JVM, to keep the peace and the girls off her back. Didn't want to hand them any ammo to get on her case, about being rude to JVM. I get the impression that Andrew Borden was the one who was close to JVM, that Abby was polite and tolerant because of her husband's feelings.

After all and at the end of the day, this was Mr. B's first wife's brother.

Abby would have been naturally suspicious of him and his motives. After all, he was always up in her husband's business. I think Abby realized what side he was on, push come to shove, and that would have been the side of his nieces.

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However, I don't know that Abby would have been outright snooping, what with Lizzie under her heels.

You know, I can just picture Lizzie luring Mrs. B up to the guest bedroom, then saying, "I'll go down for the laundry," then her going to the cellar and then calling out the side door to Bridget, then returning upstairs.

Abby would have been totally off-guard, totally expecting Lizzie's presence.

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Remember, in her Inquest testimony, Lizzie mentions the Bordens expecting a houseguest, Monday, August 8th.

I could see Lizzie telling Mrs. Borden (in a lie) that one of her Marion friends would be stopping by for a visit that Monday, that there must be a new bedspread for Lizzie's guest, and that Lizzie is thus willing to pay for her guest to have the best. "Would you please go measure for the size, Mrs. Borden?"

I think Lizzie may have let such a lie surface in the Inquest testimony.

After all, no one ever came forward and said they were invited, and Lizzie never identified who it was.

Come on! If you knew someone was coming, you would know who that someone was!

Similarly, if you knew Mrs. B was going out to tend to a sick relative, you would have asked who that was! "Where will you be, Mrs. Borden, so that I may tell Father? He will be worried over your absence."

Easy peasy.

I agree with you on many points DJ. I believe that if Abby was going out to visit someone she would have told Bridget or Lizzie where she was going. It doesn't seem natural to just say "someone is sick. I'm going to tend to them." It seems more natural she would have put a name to that someone. It also seems logical someone would have stepped forward after the murder to say they had sent the note if indeed there ever was a note. I also believe if there was company expected at the house Abby would have said who it was she was expecting. If Lizzie had been expecting someone you would think she would have named that person to corroborate her story. I don't believe there was ever a visitor coming, or a note for Abby. None of those claims seem like normal behavior for women who live together day in and day out. Even if you do not get along you would share such information.