Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Found this little article in the (?)Chronicle dated June 10, 1893

Personally I think Alice did the best she could.

The article implies that burning the dress was an incriminating act and that Alice was aware of that. For some reason, the jury didn't think so. I wonder why?

I also wonder why the jury didn’t find the dress burning incident an incriminating act.

Back in Lizzie’s day, a dress that was not ‘presentable enough’ to wear, would have been torn up and used for cleaning rags or cut up for making patchwork quilts, etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the dress Lizzie burned was supposedly a new dress, which had been ruined when she brushed against fresh paint. That would have left a great deal of material without any paint whatsoever on it. So, not only was Lizzie being extremely wasteful by burning it, her actions were totally against what she would have been taught during her upbringing years.

As far as that goes, she could have torn the dress up and given the rags to Maggie to use when washing those dang windows!

Agreed, Twinsrwe. The defense tried some fancy footwork at the trial about dress-burning being a fairly common practice at No. 92.

In Andrew Borden's house? I don't think so.

Actually, I believe Alice did Lizzie an unfathomable favor by battling with her troubled conscience for three months, instead of three days, because I believe the dress-burning bomb would have been highly-- inflammatory-- at the Inquest, when Lizzie was trying to speak for herself, instead of allowing her attorneys to do so.

However, Inquest testimony could have gown down as follows:

Mr. Knowlton: Why did you burn the dress?
Miss Borden: It was stained with paint.
Q: Was it stained with anything else?
A: Some week-old mutton broth, perhaps.
Q: How about blood?
A: Well ... Maggie had cut herself in the scullery, then happened to grab me by the sleeve, so it's possible. There's always the fleas, as well.
Q: What about your father's blood, or your stepmother's?
A: Anything's possible, but I didn't notice.
Q: Miss Borden, did you burn the dress in question because you murdered your stepmother, then your father, and the dress was stained with their blood, following your assault?
A: Are you accusing me of murdering Father and Mrs. Borden?
Q: That would be correct.
A: Do you realize how insulting that is?
Q: Miss Borden, you do realize you are present at this proceeding as a suspect in these crimes?
A: Yes, and I believe you are wasting your time, laboring under said delusion.
Q: Miss Borden, did you or did you not burn the dress because it was stained with the victims' blood?
A: I've told you, it was stained with paint.
Q: Were there any blood stains on the dress?
A: It would depend on your definition of "stains."
Q: As in, visible to the naked eye.
A: Mr. Knowlton, had I known you would be so interested in that paint-stained dress, I never would have burned it. I would have worn it for your inspection today, to settle your curiosity. However, it would appear that no one else in this room is wearing paint-stained clothing. When paint-stained clothing becomes a fashion, I shall be sure to wear some for your viewing pleasure. Until such time, I shall continue to burn my paint-stained clothing. Or, should Miss Russell desire it, she is welcome to such stained articles. Perhaps she can turn paint-stained clothing into a fashion, or else use it to heat her own house.

DJ wrote:Agreed, Twinsrwe. The defense tried some fancy footwork at the trial about dress-burning being a fairly common practice at No. 92.

In Andrew Borden's house? I don't think so. ...

I don't believe Andrew would have allowed such extravagance in his household, either.

DJ wrote:...Actually, I believe Alice did Lizzie an unfathomable favor by battling with her troubled conscience for three months, instead of three days, because I believe the dress-burning bomb would have been highly-- inflammatory-- at the Inquest, when Lizzie was trying to speak for herself, instead of allowing her attorneys to do so. ...

I agree! Especially since that particular dress was not found during the search.

twinsrwe wrote:I also wonder why the jury didn’t find the dress burning incident an incriminating act.

Back in Lizzie’s day, a dress that was not ‘presentable enough’ to wear, would have been torn up and used for cleaning rags or cut up for making patchwork quilts, etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the dress Lizzie burned was supposedly a new dress, which had been ruined when she brushed against fresh paint. That would have left a great deal of material without any paint whatsoever on it. So, not only was Lizzie being extremely wasteful by burning it, her actions were totally against what she would have been taught during her upbringing years.

As far as that goes, she could have torn the dress up and given the rags to Maggie to use when washing those dang windows!

Yup, I'm wondering about that too. Looks suspicous to me, to burn a dress just with alittle bit of paint. If I was a juror, I'd be wondering what else was on that dress to take such a drastic move. She could have just ripped the dress up and used for as rags, as you stated. Look alittle weird to me.

If there was nothing incriminating on the dress, then it was another item supporting Lizzie's innocence. It makes more sense to preserve the dress than to dispose of it at that point, and especially if it was worn the morning of the murders. Lizzie didn't know at the time she burned the dress who could or could not identify the dress she wore that morning. There was absolutely no compelling reason to burn the dress if it did not incriminate Lizzie. I agree, they could have gotten a few pot holders or rags out of it, if nothing else.

Hind sight is 20/20. I bet she wished she would have saved the dress, if she'd know she was going to be accused of murdering her parents. But it does look alittle to burn the dress.

Lizzie was aware she was suspected of the murders at the time she burned the dress. She found out she was suspected on Saturday and she burned the dress on Sunday.

That to me would shows quilt. You know you are suspected of murder and you are burning a dress that supposedly has red paint.

I believe I read (I think it was Emma's testimony) that she insisted the dress was soiled badly and she suggested Lizzie burn it. Also, Ms Russell told her that she had lied (about the dress) and Emma encouraged her to go tell the investigator or police.

Of course we don't know the tone Emma used when she 'encouraged' Alice to go to the police/authorities, do we? Could have been gently and sweetly supportive or it could have been more, shall we say, brisk and challenging!

DJ wrote: ...
Q: Miss Borden, did you burn the dress in question because you murdered your stepmother, then your father, and the dress was stained with their blood, following your assault?
A: Are you accusing me of murdering Father and Mrs. Borden?
Q: That would be correct.
A: Do you realize how insulting that is?
Q: Miss Borden, you do realize you are present at this proceeding as a suspect in these crimes?
A: Yes, and I believe you are wasting your time, laboring under said delusion.
Q: Miss Borden, did you or did you not burn the dress because it was stained with the victims' blood?
A: I've told you, it was stained with paint.
Q: Were there any blood stains on the dress?
A: It would depend on your definition of "stains."
Q: As in, visible to the naked eye.
A: Mr. Knowlton, had I known you would be so interested in that paint-stained dress, I never would have burned it. I would have worn it for your inspection today, to settle your curiosity. However, it would appear that no one else in this room is wearing paint-stained clothing. When paint-stained clothing becomes a fashion, I shall be sure to wear some for your viewing pleasure. Until such time, I shall continue to burn my paint-stained clothing. Or, should Miss Russell desire it, she is welcome to such stained articles. Perhaps she can turn paint-stained clothing into a fashion, or else use it to heat her own house.

I always, always admire Lizzie's great courage vs Knowlton's aggressivity. Even under suspicion, Lizzie insisted in naming Abby as Mrs. Borden. I would like really to have been there!

Good girl, Lizzie!

DJ wrote: ...
Q: Miss Borden, did you burn the dress in question because you murdered your stepmother, then your father, and the dress was stained with their blood, following your assault?
A: Are you accusing me of murdering Father and Mrs. Borden?
...

Chronologically Abby was killed first, Andrew second. Knowlton followed this order, asking: "...because you murdered your stepmother, then your father..." But Lizzie, in her (immediate) reply, didn't follow the murder's chronological order, she followed "intimity" order and the chronological order of the discoveries of the two bodies: "...murdering Father and Mrs. Borden?"

Certainly, this detail could mean nothing.