Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Fascinating. I was very interested to hear Stefani's theory after reading Parallel Lives and learned something new... I did not realize the coat was under a pillow under Andrew's head.

Totally worth watching-- and should be on mainstream TV. I would love to see a special with this very trio.

The technical glitches cost valuable time and I think it was a real disadvantage as to how much they were able to share and speak about.

Yes, they kept kept getting dropped off. They determined that the bandwidth was not strong enough.

So they are going to do it over again next week—at which time it will be made perfect then posted on to youtube......without interruption. So stay tuned.

great

Yes: Aamartin

Now I have been told that it has been reschedule for the end of March.

That is great news. I can't wait to hear the whole thing. Will it still be considered Episode # 13?

YES: There will be a new episode number. They' re going to shoot the entire thing over, and air it again, is my understanding. Then it will be placed on Youtube at a later date.

I am sure Stefani will keep us posted

I was going to begin a thread re the coat sometime soon.

It may well be the clue that brings us closest (if not all the way) to the case's solution.

There is no way on God's Green Earth that Andrew Borden would have wadded it up for use as a pillow. Indeed, Addie Churchill testifies (now, I can't remember whether it's the Inquest or the Preliminary Hearing, but I'm almost sure it's before the trial) how (to paraphrase) nice Mr. Borden looked that a.m. when she saw him leaving from the side door, how nicely dressed he looked in his coat and all. That she "would like to remember him that way." Indeed, her testimony was so strong that it rendered the impression that she might have had a "thing" for ol' Mr. B.

However, I'm not going to get into that, but it's interesting to note that she seemed fond of him.

I can't see that an "outside" intruder would have taken the time to wad up the coat under Mr. B's head.

Dime to a doughnut, it was used as a "blood shield" by someone whom it would have covered rather thoroughly.

Someone who took the time to place it under the victim's head, but not someone who could take the time to remove the eighty bucks and change from the victim's billfold-- an amount that would have been worth one-thousand-dollars-plus in today's spending power.

(If an outsider had used the coat as a blood shield, no reason to put it under Mr. B's head. Drop it and run. Leave the hatchet, too. No way to trace the coat to an outside perp. However, if the perp did not want anyone to know the modus operandi, then she would have attempted to hide it, as she may well have attempted to hide her handle-less hatchet in the cellar.)

I have to agree about the coat. Mr. Borden most surely would have hung it up in the closet or hallway. It seems he took care of his clothes because of the expense. How ingenious though to think about using it as a shield then rolling it up under his head. This was a point that was carefully thought out.

If Andrew Borden was careless with his clothing, why would he change from the Prince Albert coat to the cardigan jacket? The cardigan was hung in the same location every day, why would Andrew be careless enough to wad up the Prince Albert and use it for a pillow? I agree, there was an inconsistency in finding the Prince Albert coat where it was.

I think a separate post about the coat would be a great idea

I think Lizzie could have protected herself from blood splatter by donning Mr. Borden's coat, and ducking into the dining room.

When I see re-enactments of that murder, she's always standing in front of the sofa, not to the side and behind, as she could have, given the proximity of the door.

Indeed, there is a version of the "jump-rope/playground" chant that goes:

"And then she stood behind the door / And gave her Father forty more."

Blood is only going to spurt as long as the heart is beating, so the first blow is going to be the crucial one, as far as avoiding blood. If Lizzie could see what she was doing by standing in the door, she could have stepped back to avoid the worst of that.

Afterward, blood spatter is going to be created by the slinging of the blade. That is, what it picks up on entry and is flung off when the arm is raised once more. There is some control over it, then. And, let's remember, Lizzie had "a practice round." (If she did it.)

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Lizzie takes off the coat and wads it up under her Father's head. Grabs one of the "fabled" hankies (that she's been setting about ironing all morning, when she was not in the barn searching for scrap metal and eating pears) off the dining-room table (and, my, isn't she fixated on those-- "handiwipes"), does a quick self-tidy before proceeding to the cellar, where she can wash further as necessary and do what she will with the murder weapon.

Remember, she's pumping adrenaline as if it's quarter-a-gallon-gasoline. She's hustling. She's got to get to the cellar before Maggie comes unexpectedly down the stairs. One minute to murder, one minute to "handiwipe" with a hanky or two
(she could have burned these over the sink in the cellar, easy enough), and eight minutes dealing with the hatchet.

She could have gone from sleeping father to hollering for Bridget in ten minutes.

10 minutes easy. Next time your in the kitchen waiting for something to come out of the microwave, even in 3-4 minutes-- notice how much you can actually get done-- even without hustling.

I hope we get a reminder when it airs again.

Some of you mentioned the coat. I wonder what kind of material the Prince albert was made of and how easily it may wrinkle. I said before that my thought was he could have put it under the cushion to prop his head a up a little since the arms on the sofa were of an angle that looked to be uncomfortable.

There is a thread that discusses the coat here with some transcript copy too. http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LBFor ... f=1&t=4743

I cannot imagine how a small woman( with long sleeves could lift up a bloody head of a big man and stuff it under him while she holds him up) and not get blood on her.

By wedging the blade of the hatchet under his head, forcing the head up with one hand on the hilt, the other holding the folded coat. Stuff it under, and move on.

The hands never touch the head.

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Going back, I don't believe Mr. Borden would have folded up his best coat-- the one he wore as a member of the board of directors of several banks-- to use as a pillow for a catnap. If he required a pillow/cushion, surely there was one in the sitting room, or else in the front parlor.

I wouldn't even fold up my everyday blue blazer and use it for a pillow.

There was already a pillow there..... Not to mention the arm of the sofa was already raised.

YES:

Here you go Aamartin.

The Tom Mauriello Broadcast Re-recorded just a couple of hours ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-EDwiwHQp4

it was really good!

Just finished listening and I thought it was really a good show. One point that I thought was interesting was the comment that people think of Lizzie the way she was portrayed by the press and public opinion. How the legend decimated (spelling?) her life.
I'm trying to put myself in that position and it must have been very frustrating to hear all these things about your life that were probably not true.
Like it was said at the end, be careful what you believe from what you read. Check all sources.
So far everything I've read in Parallel Lives has been supported by documentation such as letters or journals. I'm learning all kinds of things, like yesterday I read about Lawyer Angell who started the MSPCA. I never knew how much Emma and Lizzie were involved in animal care & protection.

I have to say Great Job to Stef, Michael & Dennis I really enjoyed the show!!

Aamartin wrote:There was already a pillow there..... Not to mention the arm of the sofa was already raised.

I do hear you, Aamartin, but as someone with a bad neck I tend to prop my neck in all different ways when I'm resting on the couch. It can be very hard to get comfortable and a pillow isn't always enough. And some of my couches have had a high arm or an awkward shape over years. So I guess that's why I think he may have used his coat because Lizzie wasn't in the room to get him something else (maybe), and he may have thought if he folded it carefully it would not get too wrinkled if it were to be for a short duration.

I missed the show but don't doubt it was great.

I have used my coat for a pillow in airports, etc-- and can see the logic in it. But Andrew was pretty fastidious and frugal. Would he take the chance of dirtying or wrinkling his coat?