Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Just thought I'd throw this tidbit in here. She and I had a conversation about the Borden trial. She said that her grandfather, who remembers his father when he was on the defense team, always said that they were convinced Emma had committed the murders...

Are you serious? I'd love to her their reasoning behind that. I know she was out of town , but I think she might have had something to do with it. I think she might have given the idea to Lizzie. Neither Lizzie or Emma liked Abby. Lizzie, I think, had more of the "balls" of the two. She was the one, I think, was the one who would take action. Emma was the shrinking violet. So, at best, she was a co-conspirator.

I don't think that Lizzie would have thought of this by herself. All her life I'm sure she confided & asked Emma for help on just about everything. Emma basically took care of her at least until Abby came along.

You're kidding... This is very interesting!

Did her grandfather happen to mention what convinced the defense team that Emma was the killer? Wasn’t she in Fairhaven during the time that the murders took place?

I have always believed that Emma was indirectly involved in the murders. I think she not only knew who the killer was, she planted her hatred ‘seeds’ in the murderer’s mind. I believe these seeds were planted from the time Abby became Mrs. Borden. Emma knew that Lizzie would be filled with an uncontrollable rage, which I believe the number of blows each victim received indicates. Yes, I believe Lizzie was the killer.

However, I do keep an open mind, and would like to hear any tibit of information your Dental Hygeinist may have.

Your' right Nadzieja, I don't think LIzzie would have thought of the murders on her own. Somehow or another, I think Emma gave her the idea. An indirect conspirator if you will.

I just keep thinking of something I learned not long ago, and that is that Emma was the one who inherited all the money after the deaths of Abby & Andrew. She split the money with Lizzie after the trial. I always was under the assumption that it was split because they were the two survivors. I live in MA and I should do a little research to see if the law is different now. But my point--do you think there is a possiblity that Emma maybe used this as an incentive to Lizzie? Something like - LIzzie if you go through this I'll make sure you're set for life. I know it's a little off the wall but when I found out about this law I started to look at it a lttle different. I know from personal experience when someone passes away people can be like buzzards coming out of the wall to see what was left them. I know it was a big gamble because if found guilty, Lizzie would have been hung. Maybe all she could focus on was the money & didn't expect to be arrested. Any thoughts???

One possibility is that Lizzie wanted to keep the Borden fortune in the Borden family. She didn't want Abby's family to benefit to any degree. If the law at the time made Emma the exclusive heir to Andrew's estate, then it left Lizzie with nothing to lose by committing murder.

No, I'm not kidding, this is exactly what this woman told me...I pressed for details, but she had none. She said her grandfather didn't like to talk about it, but I begged her to ask him for anything about the case the next time she saw him.

Thanks for sharing, ND! Always interesting to hear such a tidbit.

I think one of the great mysteries of this case will remain, how complicit was Emma? (And Uncle John and Dr. Bowen, for that matter?)

What did they know, and when?

My personal theory is that Emma knew Lizzie was planning to strike, literally, and that she contacted Uncle John to come down and do damage control for Lizzie, to intercede on her behalf as much as possible, which is precisely what he did, by telling the police right off that they would probably never solve the murders!

Prescient, but not surprising, if there were conspirators.

I think Uncle John came back to the house on the Fourth to see whether Lizzie had, in fact, struck. He saw the gathering crowd outside (in spite of his protests to the contrary), and proceeded to the back door, which was already guarded, for goodness sake.

I think his big surprise was that Mr. Borden was dead, too, which is why Uncle John had to go out to the pear tree to gather his thoughts. Thinking, always thinking-- like keeping the letter from Mr. Borden (on his person, no less) and by not having a bit of contact with Lizzie on that visit, or on previous visits, for that matter.

Lizzie tried to explain things to a fault, and so did he. He always had a reason to be where he was. At the Borden's, on the Fourth. Sitting and sitting to see his niece, the following morning.

Couldn't he just be upset that Andrew and Abby were brutally murdered?

Oh no, he never talked to Lizzie. Oh, he was away all morning. Oh, oh, oh-- it couldn't have been me. Or Lizzie. You'll never find the murderer. Give it up now!

Distancing himself rather clearly from participation in a conspiracy.

I think that because there were probably co-conspirators in Emma and Uncle John (both of whom, I believe, knew Lizzie was planning to murder, in advance), they come up again and again as possible suspects in the murders.

However, I believe that's because they acted so fishy, not because they were in the house when Lizzie did her bizness.

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I grow impatient with people who argue that Uncle John had five grand in the bank, so he couldn't have possibly been involved.

Heck, I'm sure Emma had five grand in the bank. Lizzie had $2,500, at least.

I wouldn't doubt that Uncle John doubled his five grand, or even tripled it, owing to Emma. Nice work, if you can get it. Sure beat a lifetime of squirreling away that first five grand.

However, I think money was only part of the motive, on his, and Emma's, and Lizzie's parts.

As Yooper remarked: Emma and Lizzie did not want to see Abby's relatives spending any Borden money, or having any fruits of the Borden fortune. That was made clear in the Whitehead affair.

Abby was a senior citizen. If she had inherited a third of the money, most of it probably would have wound up with Abby's heirs. Emma and Lizzie would have stroked to see them living in fine houses with fine carriages. No sirree, bobtail.

Uncle John was their connection to their mother. If she had lived and Andrew had predeceased her, then Morse would have probably benefited from her inheritance.

As much as he chewed the fat and seemed close to Andrew, I cynically believe he was trying to stay close to that fortune, too, a chunk of which would have gone to his sister, had she lived.

Mrs. Borden treated him civilly because she knew where her bread was buttered. She wouldn't have given Andrew, or The Girls, any reason to gang up on her, had she treated John Morse in an uncivil fashion.

("Oh, Father, look how ill-bred Mrs. Borden is!")

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I think Lizzie (and the others) planned on her killing Mrs. Borden. But, you can only be executed once, so why not go for broke and gamble on going straight to the full inheritance, especially if Andrew had been making noises about public bequests?

I never heard the argument that Uncle John had five grand in the bank. That's a new one for me. I've heard that he didn't he was kind of tight with money and the other one I heard that he was trying to get money from Andy, and change the will. I might be wrong. But I never did hear he had that kind of money.

I also never heard anything about Uncle John having money in the bank. However, I do know that if Andrew died all the inheritance would have gone to his wife because of not having a will. Lizzie & Emma wouldn't have gotten a thing and Abby could have done anything she wanted with that money. After years of arguments I have a feeling that if Abby did have that money she would have asked Lizzie & Emma to leave and not given them a penney.

If I remember correctly, Abby would have been entitled to the proceeds from a percentage of Andrew's estate while she lived. Lizzie and Emma would have inherited the bulk of it, as well as the portion set aside to generate income for Abby, when Abby died. I don't know offhand what percentage of the estate would have been set aside to support Abby, but the Borden daughters would have eventually gotten all of the estate, minus the interest from Abby's portion while she lived. I don't know if Lizzie and Emma were aware of the estate laws at the time. It could be that they begrudged Abby financial support for the rest of her life, or maybe they assumed Abby would inherit the bulk of the estate.

Well I learned from the radio broadcast from the FRHS that Abby inherited everything because she was the oldest child. She split it with Lizzie after she was aquitted.

I assume you mean Emma rather than Abby was the eldest child. I don't quite understand how Emma would have inherited everything. Lizzie wouldn't have been allowed to benefit from a crime, so she wouldn't have inherited anything if she had been convicted. It might be that Lizzie couldn't access estate proceeds while she was incarcerated. Primogeniture disappeared in this country right after the Revolution, so it wasn't a statutory condition. It could be that since Lizzie was incarcerated and if part of the estate was needed for various living and legal expenses, perhaps it was transferred to Emma temporarily, pending the trial outcome. Emma could then split it with Lizzie or retain it entirely depending on the verdict. In any case, I don't think Emma inherited the estate because she was the eldest child.

Sorry I did mean Emma. I'm going to check with Stef because I'm sure that's what was said on the broadcast.

I'm very interested in what Stef has to say about that bit of information, please let us know.

I sent out a note, but haven' t gotten an answer yet, when I do, I'll pass it on.

Thanks, Nadzieja... We would greatly appreciate it.

Just catching up on the posts on the forum. Been in rehab the last 3 months.

From my files on the administration of the Borden estate here is some data:

"New Bedford Evening Standard, Friday, September 2, 1892 Page 1

ANDREW J. BORDEN'S ESTATE.

Miss Emma Appointed Administratrix by the Probate Court.

[Special Dispatch.]
Taunton, Sept. 2. --- A matter of interest in relation to the celebrated Borden case appeared at a session of the Probate Court in this city to-day. On the 5th of August, the day following the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Borden, Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden appeared before Andrew J. Jennings as justice of the peace and swore that they were the surviving children of Andrew J. Borden, who died on the day previous intestate, and left no widow. They prayed that Emma L. Borden be appointed administratrix of the estate of Andrew J. Borden. On August 30 the bond of Emma L. Borden was approved by the Probate Court. The sureties are Joseph A. Borden, Franklin L. Almy, Jerome C. Borden, Frank S. Stevens and Andrew Borden of Fall River, and the amount is $50,000.

There was no application for administration upon any estate of Mrs. Abby Borden, and it is stated that she left no personal or real estate. "
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New York Sun, 24 September 1893 (Partial article)

“…. They have taken their father’s estate, which is commonly spoken of as the value of $400,000. It is probably less than that, but is of a nature to increase greatly as time goes on. On August 5, Emma Borden filed a petition with the Clerk of the Probate Court in Taunton and qualified, with a bond of $50,000 to act as administratrix of her father’s estate. The bond filed with the court by Lawyer Wood, as administrator of Mrs. Borden’s estate, was one of $500 only. Miss Emma Borden is now in control of the estate for her own benefit and that of her sister Lizzie. She has not yet filed a schedule of the properties which compose her trust, but must do so within a few weeks, and must thereafter report her operations as administratrix once a year. The cruel and gratuitous insinuation that there may have been a will, and that there was talk of forcing the sister into court again in order to air this supposition, has no basis. If Mr. Borden had made a will, he would have kept it where he kept all his papers, in the vaults of the financial institutions with which he was connected. It was said that he was about to make his first will at the time he was murdered, but that was not brought out on the trial. …..”
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From my post on the forum dated Nov. 10, 2010:

Emma did not inherit the estate but technically Emma did have sole control of its administration. Note that this was done the day after the murders. This was probably done at Jennings' urging.

Lizzie did not formally receive her share of the estate until a January 22, 1894 hearing. (See Rebello, p280)

"I, Lizzie A. Borden, named in the foregoing statement of Emma L. Borden, do hereby certify that the facts stated in the foregoing affidavit are true and I request that said statement be accepted. in lieu of and as a substitute for any further or other account. I also acknowledge the receipt of my full share of the said estate of Andrew J. Borden and in the consideration of the__?__ do hereby release and discharge the said Emma L. Borden as such administratrix from any and all liability whatsoever arising from or __?__ of the administration of the estate of said Andrew J. Borden."
/ signed/ Lizzie A. Borden."

Harry wrote:Just catching up on the posts on the forum. Been in rehab the last 3 months. ...

Oh, wow, Harry, I was wondering where you have been. You have been greatly missed, and I'm glad you are back!!! I hope you are dong well after your rehab stay.

Thank you so much for posting all of the information you gave us - it clears up a lot!

The thing that surprised me is that Emma and Lizzie filed a petition for Emma to act as administratrix of their father’s estate, with the Clerk of the Probate Court in Taunton on August 5th, the day after the murders!!!

I highly doubt if my father had been brutally murdered in the manner in which Andrew Borden was, that I would have even thought of taking that kind of action the day after his death. It’s as if this action was pre-planned by Emma and Lizzie. Why, what was the rush??? I find it hard to believe that this action was one of the first things on Emma and Lizzie’s minds. Apparently, they were not in a state of confusion due to the shock of their father being murdered!!!

So glad you are back Harry! Hope you are feeling well. Thank you so much for posting that because I couldn't find it. As always you come through and I must say I so much respect your knowledge & the knowledge of the people who have been here a long time. I have to say I also don't think I would be doing anything in the way of filing any paperwork if it was my dad that was murdered. I probably wouldn't have been thinking straight at all. More like having to be sedated.

Thanks for the information, Harry, it's good to see you back! If Jennings made the suggestion that Emma administrate the estate as early as the 5th of August, does it imply that Jennings was aware that Lizzie would be charged with the crimes? He may have realized that he might need to assemble a defense for Lizzie, and that could get expensive.

Somewhere I thought I posted this, but don't see it. I Mapquested Emma's location and the Borden home and did a quickest route. It would have taken 2 hours each way for her to have gone home, even in a very fast horse and buggy. It seems too long to be away without someone noticing, especially since the Alarm went up immediately after Mr. Borden's death and a telegram was sent to Emma...

NancyDrew wrote:Just thought I'd throw this tidbit in here. She and I had a conversation about the Borden trial. She said that her grandfather, who remembers his father when he was on the defense team, always said that they were convinced Emma had committed the murders...

Yes, I would love to know why they thought that and what, if any, evidence they had. I know you posted that they don't like to discuss it but wow!

If you type in 'archives of Lizzie Borden Society' there are threads going back to 2002, MysteryReader, including a thread from Feb 2004 'Did William Borden Exist' which is very interesting.

Thanks!

Well, if Emma did it, then the conversation overheard (and then repudiated) by the matron of the jail would make sense.

Emma telling Lizzie to burn the dress that might incriminate Lizzie would make some degree of sense if she didn't want Lizzie charged with a crime she had committed due to something suspicious about the dress.

Emma's notably slow return to Fall River would be more explicable.

On one hand Emma's trip back and forth looks improbable; then again, so does Lizzie committing this crime and not leaving any evidence behine. How closely do people check on their house guests or even adult family members? A note on the door claiming to be "indisposed" might keep everyone at bay. Or a fishing trip or whatever could take her out of the house. Really, it wouldn't take a lot to convince people she was still in residence. Possum, do you have a fairly exact time on when the telegram was sent and when Emma returned the afternoon of the crime? She could have arrived the night before and crept upstairs with Lizzie who came home after dark and went directly to her room. How old were the people she was visiting?

This would certainly explain the hatchet – both where it came from and where it went – and the lack of blood stains on Lizzie.

What I love is a new theory to toss around. Welcome Mystery Reader! And thank you, Nancy Drew!

I think the telegram Dr Bowen sent was stamped 11:52 am from memory, though I wasn't there at the time! The Brownells consisted, I believe, of a friend of Emma's who was slightly younger than her and was a dressmaker (gosh I'm really dredging the old memory cells here) and a very aged person (her mother) whom they were nervous about upsetting with the dreadful news.

A horse and buggy would go at about 5 to 8 miles an hour on a good road. It was 16 miles between where Emma was staying and the Borden house. I believe Emma caught the 3:40 pm train and arrived on the doorstep of No.92 somewhere around 5pm.