Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Mrs. Churchill's son lived next door. What if he and Lizzie were involved? The son, for whatever reason, could have slipped in and out of the home easily. Or, even more off the wall...what if he and Bridget were involved? (remember the indentations in the hay in the barn?) The Borden parents could have found out about it and raised hell with Bridget, causing the son to lose it and go after them. Anyone know anything about this son?

Yes Angel.

Unfortunately Charles Henry was to young. I think he was around thirteen or fourteen years of age in 1892. Charley was a book keeper with one of the large local banks.

There may have been three Charles H Churchills. Addie's husband was named Charles H. Later directories (from the 20s) show two Charles H Churchills. One living at the house at 216 Second street and another living on Rock Street. Thus it is possible that Charles H., son of Addie, could have had his own son.

Not giving away my age, but when Charles Henry Churchill died, I was already born. (god...)

Now, here's some food for thought....

I have this friend of mine. Have known him for well over 35 years. He worked with his father at a famous wrecking company in Fall River for many years. He was about fourteen when he and his father knocked down Seabury Bowen''s house. (I think he also knocked down the Churchill house after it burnt down in the early 60s)

As I was saying, he and his father was responsible for demolishing the Bowen house and most of the center of the city, including the old city hall when interstate 195 cut through the center of the city. If you see pictures of the city hall being demolished, that was my friend's father who did so. They lived across the street from me in the 70s.

As a matter of fact we ran into him the other day and asked him about a certain story which he always told.

Let's call him Pete. (don't want to use his real name)

Pete told us that when he was a young teenager he remembers, he swears, that when his father knocked down Bowen's house there was a tunnel in the basement that went under the road. (2nd street) It went a long way . (100 feet?) He and his father crawled through it. When they did, it came out across the road in someone's cellar. Pete said that he was to young at the time to give it any constructive thought.

He swears that it is true. (though I have been down in the cellar of 92 Second Street and I don't remember anything like an old passage or foundation work. Also the possibilities of police missing it makes no sense if it did exist. Remember....the Second Street neighborhood is one of the oldest ones in the city and went back well into the 1700s

There's a theory for you.

(For those unaware. In the photo below: To the left is the Churchill house, known as The Old Buffington House," and center the Borden house, and to the right, the corner of Seabury Bowen's house)

If memory serves, the Bowen house was a side-by-side duplex occupied by Dr. Bowen and his family and Southard Miller, Dr. Bowen's father-in-law. Andrew Borden worked for Southard Miller when Andrew was a young man, as a carpenter. Southard Miller built the house at 92 Second Street occupied by the Bordens. Did he build either of the Churchill (Buffinton) and/or Miller-Bowen houses? At the time of the tunnel discovery, had the Churchill house burned? If so, how extensive was the damage? Would they have known they were in the Churchill cellar? Would Mayor Buffinton have needed an escape tunnel for some reason (fire, angry taxpayers, etc.)? Perhaps part of the Underground Railroad?

I found this in the witness statements on page 20 in the reports of Harrington and Doherty:

Mrs. Mary Wyatt, No. 91 Second street. This woman lives over Dr. Bowen. It is she who first told Mr. M. Chace, L. Winslow, and several others who were standing in front of Wade’s, about the crime. She dodged us for a week or more; and when finally seen, positively refused to be interviewed.

yes Yooper:

I know that my friend knocked down most of the buildings downtown to make room for the highway. Not sure which year the Bowen house was demolished, but it had to be around the same time as the city hall, which went down in 1962. I got the date for the Churchill fire from Leonard Rebello's book.

The Hatchet magazine was suppose to do a story about the wrecking company and it's connection with the Borden Neighborhood, but nothing has been done. I know the editor of the Hatchet has been in touch with my friend Pete about doing a story and picking his brain. I'll inquire about it and see is anything will be done soon to discover the details.

If it happened today, that is to say, they were demolishing the Bowen house, the tunnel would be a huge story.

Back in 1961 no one cared. Very little interest existed about the Borden case. So, I can see how something like Pete's story was never investigated at the time.

It was an era when the Lizzie case was still being avoided, never talked about, spurned.

Yes:

An interesting note.

I was very fortunate to have a tour of the Borden house in the early 1970s or there and about, before any renovations were done. I had a job for the printing company next door and the lady at the printers was very eager to show me around. When I went in, the first floor was empty. No one was living there. Everything was old dusty, dark and dusty. Can not remember what it looked like inside at the time. I wasn't interested. Of course the printing lady was excited about showing me the place and I humored her by "allowing" her to show me around. I just had no interest.

What a shame.

Can you say, dumb kid.

Angel wrote:Mrs. Churchill's son lived next door. What if he and Lizzie were involved? The son, for whatever reason, could have slipped in and out of the home easily. Or, even more off the wall...what if he and Bridget were involved? (remember the indentations in the hay in the barn?) The Borden parents could have found out about it and raised hell with Bridget, causing the son to lose it and go after them. Anyone know anything about this son?

Yup, I like that one. Daddy warbucks walks in on Lizzie and the son doing the deed, and he flips. Boy, I could have some fun with this theory!! With my imagination, I'd have a blast with this. Gives new meaning to the statement "Letting your imagination run wild? LOL!

Yes:

Unlikely snokkums.

Charles Henry Churchill was too young, as I stated in a post above. He was only, about, thirteen.

Unless he was a TEENAGE VAMPIRE.

That may work.

(these are my fans)

Talking about off the wall theories....

I remember an article in the Herald News many years back about a fellow who was writing a book about the Borden murders, with the angle that Doctor Bowen did it. Not sure whether he had some sort of proof. It was never published.

So we are left with Donel Fattibene. She is the last author to come up with a theory about the Borden murders, and she published her account a 54 page booklet called I did it (2009?)

Now.......it's not her theory that is.... well, improbable, if I can use such a word. But how she came about the information.

Not sure whether anyone read Mrs. Fattibene's book. In it she claims that Emma Did it. Dressed as a man. And that it all came to her in a dream. That, Emma herself came to her in a dream and gave her the information.

What thinks you?

I posted this elsewhere...but a couple of months ago I was at the dentist, having the beginning of a root canal. I was under the gas and started babbling about my interest in the Lizzie Borden case. One of the dental assistants told me that her great grandfather was on Lizzie's "dream team" and that his son (her grandfather) told the family that Lizzie's lawyers were convinced Emma did it.

I pressed her for details, but she didn't have any more than that. Her grandfather is still alive, but she said talking about the murders upsets him.

mbhenty wrote:Yes:

Unlikely snokkums.

Charles Henry Churchill was too young, as I stated in a post above. He was only, about, thirteen.

Yup, I know Charles was too young, but the possibility of someone else maybe? Or maybe she was doing something daddy warbucks didn't like. Who knows. This family didn't look or sound like the family that talks too much about anything. Maybe very dysfunctional.

I wondered about the book " I did it " and found a news article from a few years ago with a little detail .
http://www.dailynewstranscript.com/ente ... z2Y1aZQdfi

I read the article, and I may buy the book. Basically, the author (who self published her tome) claims that Emma did it, based on a dream she had, in which Emma came and visited her and told her the entire story. She claims Emma relayed a tale of how she set up an alibi with her cousins in Fairhaven, then dressed like a man (complete with fake moustache) rented a horse and buggy, and came home to "do the deeds."

I have more than a few problems with this scenario.

1. How did Emma slip in undetected? No one saw a very slightly built man with a moustache coming into the house? Did she wear a hat? How did she hide her very long hair?
2. The book claims she killed Abby, then did a lot of hiding in closet until Andrew came home. How did Emma then NOT leave a blood trail all over the house?
3. This plot would have involved the duplicity and cooperation of many people in Fairhaven...most of whom, I'm assuming, had no quarrel with Andrew or Abby, and many of whom might have fancied themselves good Christians. How convenient that none of them had a change of heart and come forward...?
4. Why would Emma allow Lizzie to possibly be hanged for a crime she herself committed? She raised Lizzie...was "the little mother" (her own words) to her. She then allows her younger sister, the baby, to sit in a jail for 10 months?

Does anyone else have an opinion ? I want SOOO badly to see those files at the (former) Robinson's Law Office...because maybe they Do contain something about Emma???

NancyDrew wrote:I read the article, and I may buy the book. Basically, the author (who self published her tome) claims that Emma did it, based on a dream she had, in which Emma came and visited her and told her the entire story. She claims Emma relayed a tale of how she set up an alibi with her cousins in Fairhaven, then dressed like a man (complete with fake moustache) rented a horse and buggy, and came home to "do the deeds."

I have more than a few problems with this scenario.

1. How did Emma slip in undetected? No one saw a very slightly built man with a moustache coming into the house? Did she wear a hat? How did she hide her very long hair?
2. The book claims she killed Abby, then did a lot of hiding in closet until Andrew came home. How did Emma then NOT leave a blood trail all over the house?
3. This plot would have involved the duplicity and cooperation of many people in Fairhaven...most of whom, I'm assuming, had no quarrel with Andrew or Abby, and many of whom might have fancied themselves good Christians. How convenient that none of them had a change of heart and come forward...?
4. Why would Emma allow Lizzie to possibly be hanged for a crime she herself committed? She raised Lizzie...was "the little mother" (her own words) to her. She then allows her younger sister, the baby, to sit in a jail for 10 months?

Does anyone else have an opinion ? I want SOOO badly to see those files at the (former) Robinson's Law Office...because maybe they Do contain something about Emma???

As soon as I hear "it came to me in a dream..." I am gone. That is too ridiculous to even respond to. As to Emma doing it, I MapQuested the Borden house and where Emma was staying, and It was about 16 miles each way. In a buggy with an excellent horse that would be about 4 hours round trip. She would have been gone far to long not to have been missed.

I have many problems with the theory that Emma did it as well. I've never believed Emma had anything to do with the murders. Certain facts could be used to show support for the theory, the same as they could with any of the other theories, but I think it's pretty weak. Where Emma was staying in Fairhaven is roughly 16 miles from the house in Fall River. I don't know what route one would have had to take in a horse and buggy at the time, or how long it would have taken to travel that distance. I can't say I've ever even traveled in a horse and buggy. But to rent something to travel Emma would have had to get up fairly early to be on the road to make it to the house to murder Abby. Then she had to rush back and return the horse and buggy in time to receive the telegram from Dr. Bowen. If she really wanted to refrain from drawing attention to herself by dressing up like a man why rent a horse and buggy? Could she pull off the part of a man that well? I'm sure if Emma had rented the rig that early on the morning of the murders sans costume that would have been remembered by someone. Then there is the question of where she would have left this unattended horse and buggy for probably close to 2 hours or more? Where did she come up with the disguise? How did she get into the house without being seen? Where did she get the murder weapon? Why would the Brownell's lie for Emma? Many questions.

Lots of good questions. I can just imagine "Charlie Chaplin" toddling past the rest of the family on the way to the guest room!

I have to agree that this theory is way too far fetched for me to believe. I have never believed that Emma had anything to do with the murders either. I also have never bought into the idea that an intruder or anybody else hid in the house in between the murders unseen. If it doesn't make sense, it's usually not true.

I don't know what route one would have had to take in a horse and buggy at the time, or how long it would have taken to travel that distance.
I don't know about the route at that time but I found this about how long it might have taken . This is about Amish horse and buggies .
Normal speeds for horse-drawn buggies range between five and eight miles per hour. So 2-3 hours for 16 miles maybe .

Thank you for the information. That would have been a very early start indeed.