Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This is my (first) complete theory about Borden case, I would like to share it with you. All criticism will be welcome. For obvious reasons I will use the indicative form for the verbs, and won’t use “probably”, “possibly” in many cases where these words are normally expected to be used, but, certainly, all is only a conjecture (I will explain the motive at the end of the post.)

1. Lizzie and Bridget and Emma were all innocent, totally innocent.

2. Uncle John was the real guilty, but he didn’t kill Andrew and Abby with his own hands. He had two conspirators, two men, to help him.

3. The first conspirator, Uncle John let him enter in the house by the front door during the night of the August 3rd. He was being in the guest room with John for a part of the night. When Morse went out he continued to hide in the guest room until Abby came in. He would be the real killer of Abby and Andrew.

4. The second conspirator was waiting near the Borden house in the morning of August 4th. After seeing Morse come out and receiving a sign from the latter, he approached the Borden house and acted as they had planned together previously.

5. The second conspirator: “Good morning, Mrs. Borden, I am sent by Mrs. X, she is sick and wants you to pay her a visit. I’ll accompany you to her home. … Oh, I’m sorry Mrs. Borden, I almost forgot it. I met Mr. Morse when I was coming here. He told me that he forgot something in his room.”
Abby: “Ok, wait me here, my boy, I’ll find it and give you.”
Abby took the note and entered in the house, and told Lizzie she would go out to pay visit to someone (for this part see Lizzie’s testimony). Meanwhile, the second conspirator, instead of waiting outside, disappeared immediately, knowing that Abby would be killed in a few minutes by the first conspirator and would never come out again. (Morse invented the note story in order to prevent Lizzie from looking for Abby. He didn’t want Lizzie to involve in the murders in any way (see below for the motive). He knew well that Bridget had no work on the second floor and very improbably she would adventure into the guest room, where he planned that Abby would be killed.)

(N. B.: During the discussions with other members I made significant modifications concerning the conversation between Abby and the consiprator. My new version is this one: The conspirator to Abby: "Good morning, Mrs. Borden, I am sent by Mrs. X, she is sick and wants you to pay her a visit. Here is her note. … Oh, another thing: I met Mr. Morse when I was coming here. He told me that he forgot something (for example, his watch) in his room. He pleased you to find it and pleased you (Abby herself) to deliver it to him. Knowing that you are going to Mrs. X's home, Mr. Morse told me that he waits you there. That's all. Goodbye, Mrs. Borden.")

6. After speaking to Lizzie, Abby destroyed in some way the note which had no importance, and then went to the guest room to search the “something” Morse required, with the idea in her mind that she would change her clothes after having found that “something”. But she would have never time to change her clothes, as she was killed in the guest room by the first conspirator. (According to the clothes of Abby when her body was found, most people think that Abby never left the house that morning. Yes, she had no time to change her clothes and never left the house, but she did receive a “false” note.)

7. After killing Abby, the killer was hiding always in the guest room, with Abby’s body lying on the floor, and with the door closed (as Lizzie said afterwards in her testimony). During all his waiting time, fortunately, neither Lizzie nor Bridget came into the guest room, just as Morse wished: he invented the note just in order to avoid Lizzie’s involvement.)

8. From the guest room’s three windows, the killer knew well Andrew’s return. At the moment he judged the best, he left the room and went to kill Andrew, and didn’t care to close the door (that’s why Bridget and Mrs. Churchill found it open when they went there to search Abby). It appeared that Andrew had been attacked from above and behind him as he slept. The killer went downstairs by the front stairs, he entered in the sitting room, either by the sitting room door, or via the parlor by the other door, he would be in a position just behind Andrew. After killing Andrew, he escaped as quickly as possible, that’s why Andrew received less blows than Abby did. The killer escaped taking his weapon away. That's why the weapon wasn't found in the house, it was indeed never found at anywhere.

9. At the moment his father was killed, Lizzie went to the barn to do a secret thing that she couldn’t confess at any price, that’s why she lied in her alibi testimony. My conjecture is: she masturbated herself in the barn, and when she came out from the barn, she was seen by that ice-cream dealer boy, Hyman Lubinsky, when she was walking slowly. (I don’t need to explain why she was walking slowly.) Lizzie didn't kill neither Abby nor Andrew, that's why there was no blood found on her body or on her clothes.

10. Unbelievably, Morse was an excellent observer and remembered many little things that morning when he was in the town, because he knew he must have solid alibi proof to present afterwards. He arrived in Fall River unexpectedly, with no changing clothes, and Abby was killed just in the guest room, just in the next day morning after his arrival, all because it was he, Morse, who planned the murders.

11. Morse established a solid alibi for himself. On the other hand, he asked the killer to kill as brutal as possible his two victims, that’s why Abby received 19 blows, Andrew 11, even though the very first blow killed them immediately. With the extreme ferocity discovered by the people, Morse wished that the police, believing that only a man could be capable of such a horrible crime, would not suspect the two women in the house: Lizzie and Bridget. But it was here the unique thing that didn’t occur as Morse planned: Lizzie was accused for the murders.

12. During the trial, Morse had always this idea in his mind: if Lizzie was convicted, I will confess all. Fortunately, Lizzie was acquitted.

13. Motive: Morse planned the murders for the happiness of his two nieces. He was the unique friend of Andrew. The latter told him that he wanted to make a will that wasn’t favorable for Lizzie and Emma. So Morse planned to kill Abby, and Andrew as well, because he wanted to liberate his nieces from Andrew’s frugal and severe life style as quickly as possible (he knew their unhappiness). He didn’t talk about his criminal plan with Borden sisters because he knew well that they wouldn’t agree. Lizzie and Emma were his sister’s daughters, they had blood relationship with Morse. But Andrew, being (only) the husband of his sister who dead 30 years ago, had in fact no blood link with Morse. After Lizzie was acquitted, she and Emma bought almost immediately a new house and began a new and happier life. Morse realized what he wished to realize, and continued his own peaceful life. Satisfied for his nieces’ happiness, he often smiled, secretly.

Yes, Morse was an altruistic uncle, with no idea of money for himself. A person so altruistic as him, and being altruistic in such a cruel manner, wasn’t born everyday, but only once every century. That’s why the Borden case wasn’t an everyday case, but the most extraordinary unsolved criminal case of all time.

I'm not sure what it was Uncle John could have forgotten since he did not bring anything with him but the clothing on his back and whatever was in his pockets. I'm sure Abby was aware of this fact. I also do not know what reason he would to kill Andrew since he gained absolutely nothing from killing him at all. Andrew was his friend. They never had troubles. I would not say he did it for the love of the girls in any way since he left them out of his own will. He specifically left them out of his own will. If he was willing to murder for them to have money why not leave them some of his own?

Putting a man out front by the Borden front door talking to Abby seems pretty risky behavior. They risked being seen chatting at the door with her by the many people passing by that morning, and by Mrs. Bowen who was sitting at her window watching the street for her daughter to arrive. Not to mention in order for this to work they would have to come to the door while Bridget was still downstairs and not already outside washing the windows.

If the man was waiting in the guest room for Abby how did she not see him when she went up there the first time? From testimony she had already been upstairs once, and had come back down. How did he know standing on the second floor behind a closed door it was safe to come downstairs? I do not believe that Andrew could be seen returning from the three windows in the guest room. I believe that two of them are on the wrong side of the house I will have to check that for sure. That just leaves the window in the front of the house. If he came into the room from the front hall he would not have been behind Andrew. He would have been in front of him and would have had to get behind him. I think opening the parlor door that close to Andrew would have alerted him if he was not already asleep, if seeing the man come into the room already had not.

The second conspirator, the man with the note, had to be someone Abby's friend trusted and someone John Morse would have trusted with his personal property. Who might that be? Abby might have found that story overly coincidental.

The information about the note practically had to be pried out of Lizzie at the inquest. She had several opportunities to respond with the note story to pertinent questions and she missed them all.

Allen wrote:I'm not sure what it was Uncle John could have forgotten since he did not bring anything with him but the clothing on his back and whatever was in his pockets. I'm sure Abby was aware of this fact. I also do not know what reason he would to kill Andrew since he gained absolutely nothing from killing him at all. Andrew was his friend. They never had troubles. I would not say he did it for the love of the girls in any way since he left them out of his own will. He specifically left them out of his own will. If he was willing to murder for them to have money why not leave them some of his own?

Putting a man out front by the Borden front door talking to Abby seems pretty risky behavior. They risked being seen chatting at the door with her by the many people passing by that morning, and by Mrs. Bowen who was sitting at her window watching the street for her daughter to arrive. Not to mention in order for this to work they would have to come to the door while Bridget was still downstairs and not already outside washing the windows.

If the man was waiting in the guest room for Abby how did she not see him when she went up there the first time? From testimony she had already been upstairs once, and had come back down. How did he know standing on the second floor behind a closed door it was safe to come downstairs? I do not believe that Andrew could be seen returning from the three windows in the guest room. I believe that two of them are on the wrong side of the house I will have to check that for sure. That just leaves the window in the front of the house. If he came into the room from the front hall he would not have been behind Andrew. He would have been in front of him and would have had to get behind him. I think opening the parlor door that close to Andrew would have alerted him if he was not already asleep, if seeing the man come into the room already had not.

Yes, Allen, but,

1. Morse didn't include Borden sisters in his own will, it's possible that, 1) The borden sisters are very welthy; 2) He thought that he had done such a favor to them secretly, so he needn't to add nothing.
2. could Morse arrive with his watch?

Yooper wrote:The second conspirator, the man with the note, had to be someone Abby's friend trusted and someone John Morse would have trusted with his personal property. Who might that be? Abby might have found that story overly coincidental.

The information about the note practically had to be pried out of Lizzie at the inquest. She had several opportunities to respond with the note story to pertinent questions and she missed them all.

Hey, Yooper, to be honest I don't undrstand well your second paragraph.

Would Abby hand Morse's watch over to a perfect stranger?

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:The second conspirator, the man with the note, had to be someone Abby's friend trusted and someone John Morse would have trusted with his personal property. Who might that be? Abby might have found that story overly coincidental.

The information about the note practically had to be pried out of Lizzie at the inquest. She had several opportunities to respond with the note story to pertinent questions and she missed them all.

Hey, Yooper, to be honest I don't undrstand well your second paragraph.

How are you doing with the first paragraph?

Allen, another point I forgot, very important one.

To be sure that Abby would enter in the guest room only for being killed and only after having told to Lizzie the note story, Morse could have made his bed, and told Abby that the bed had been made. If “from testimony she had already been upstairs once, and had come back down”, is there testimony that she did enter in the guest room? She could only open the door, and saw that the bed had been made, and then came back down, without enter in the room at all.

Not to be rude or insensitive, but your "theories" change from day to day. You certainly have the right to your opionions, but I choose not to participate in any theory that includes masturbation as a plausible reason Lizzie was even in the barn. I think you either have a very wild imagination, or have not educated yourself to the facts of the case.

I would like to add another observation:

When Andrew returned to home, the front door was unusually difficult to be opened. There could be a reason: Morse, the night before, after letting one of his conspirators enter, could close the door in such a way intentionally so that the door would be more difficult to be opened. In this way, the real killer, if he was not able to know Andrew’s return by watching outside from the windows, could be warned by the noise probably made by Bridget when she couldn’t open the door easily as usually.

Smudgeman wrote:Not to be rude or insensitive, but your "theories" change from day to day. You certainly have the right to your opionions, but I choose not to participate in any theory that includes masturbation as a plausible reason Lizzie was even in the barn. I think you either have a very wild imagination, or have not educated yourself to the facts of the case.

Hey Smudgeman,

1. I don't understand why you said that I changed my "theories" from day to day. In fact this is my first complete theory that I share with other members of the forum. This theory includes several points that I expressed before but they remained always the same: for example, 1) what was Lizzie doing when her father was killed; 2) why the guest room door was closed (as Lizzie testified) before and then open when Bridget and Mrs. churchill went there to search Abby; 3) where was the killer hiding himself, 4) why Andrew received less blows than Abby did, etc. For all these questions I have been having always the same ideas. If I expressed more than one time my sympathy for A. Brown's theory, I never said that I agree with him.

2. I supposed very seriously the masturbation conjecture. I think all other members of the forum could understand my seriousness by reading carefully all my posts. Yes, my conjecture is an issue regarding the sex. But we couldn't, in my opinion, avoid talking (certainly, in serious way) about Lizzie's sexual life while discussing the Borden case. As far as I know, there are several other theories regarding incestious relationship between Lizzie and Andrew, or Morse's homosexuality, or Lizzie's lesbian relationship, etc. How do you think about all these? Wouldn't you participate to any discussion where such an issue is concerned?

Smudgeman wrote:Not to be rude or insensitive, but your "theories" change from day to day. You certainly have the right to your opionions, but I choose not to participate in any theory that includes masturbation as a plausible reason Lizzie was even in the barn. I think you either have a very wild imagination, or have not educated yourself to the facts of the case.

Yes, Smudgeman, you are right. I think I have an unusual imagination and I feel lucky for this, but I don’t know what does mean your “wild imagination”. If those of Hieronymus Bosch or Mathias Grünewald are “wild imagination”, I would be eager to have it.

You are right, too, by saying that I am not educated enough to the facts of the Borden case. I think I am one of the most (if not the vey most) ignorant members of the forum. Indeed I began to approach the Borden case only few months ago by only searching for information in the websites. There are a huge number of things I ignore still. But my ignorance never worries me when I decide to post a topic. We are all here to exchange and share our knowledge, opinions, conjectures and ideas. By committing errors and by being corrected by other members I can learn a lot of things. I don’t agree with many ideas expressed here, but I think even from such an idea I could learn something, or at least consider it in a more positive and constructive way. My only worry is that some posts of mine could be a waste of time for “educated” members like you. On the other hand, I haven’t found in the forum nothing that could irritate me, because such a thing, in my opinion, doesn’t exist. I totally enjoy myself being here.

All I said is only my personal opinion. As Yooper said, “you can take it or leave it”, as you like.

Franz wrote:I would like to add another observation:

When Andrew returned to home, the front door was unusually difficult to be opened. There could be a reason: Morse, the night before, after letting one of his conspirators enter, could close the door in such a way intentionally so that the door would be more difficult to be opened. In this way, the real killer, if he was not able to know Andrew’s return by watching outside from the windows, could be warned by the noise probably made by Bridget when she couldn’t open the door easily as usually.

How did anyone know Bridget would make enough noise trying to open a door that it could be an alert? They make the door harder to open then have Abby meet one of the conspirators there ? If you are saying they somehow expected Bridget to make more noise than usual wouldn't they expect Abby to have done the same?

Allen wrote:

Franz wrote:I would like to add another observation:

When Andrew returned to home, the front door was unusually difficult to be opened. There could be a reason: Morse, the night before, after letting one of his conspirators enter, could close the door in such a way intentionally so that the door would be more difficult to be opened. In this way, the real killer, if he was not able to know Andrew’s return by watching outside from the windows, could be warned by the noise probably made by Bridget when she couldn’t open the door easily as usually.

How did anyone know Bridget would make enough noise trying to open a door that it could be an alert? They make the door harder to open then have Abby meet one of the conspirators there ? If you are saying they somehow expected Bridget to make more noise than usual wouldn't they expect Abby to have done the same?

Yes Allen, you are right: they couldn't be certain. Indeed they couldn't be certain if the murder plan would be successful or not. They knew well that they were running a huge risk. Any murderer runs always the risk to some extent, doesn't he? But I think that (correct me if I am wrong) from the windows of the guest room the real killer could be able to know Andrew's return, couldn't he?

Franz Wrote:
I supposed very seriously the masturbation conjecture. I think all other members of the forum could understand my seriousness by reading carefully all my posts. Yes, my conjecture is an issue regarding the sex. But we couldn't, in my opinion, avoid talking (certainly, in serious way) about Lizzie's sexual life while discussing the Borden case. As far as I know, there are several other theories regarding incestious relationship between Lizzie and Andrew, or Morse's homosexuality, or Lizzie's lesbian relationship, etc. How do you think about all these? Wouldn't you participate to any discussion where such an issue is concerned?


All of these subjects have been discussed before, and none of them have any real facts to support them. Who is to say Lizzie ever had a sex life? We will never know. In short, I do not believe that sex between anybody had any role in the murders. You are free to enjoy yourself delighting in these possibilities, just do not expect alot of members to agree with you, and don't be so offended if we don't.

Yooper wrote:

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:The second conspirator, the man with the note, had to be someone Abby's friend trusted and someone John Morse would have trusted with his personal property. Who might that be? Abby might have found that story overly coincidental.

The information about the note practically had to be pried out of Lizzie at the inquest. She had several opportunities to respond with the note story to pertinent questions and she missed them all.

Hey, Yooper, to be honest I don't undrstand well your second paragraph.

How are you doing with the first paragraph?

I don’t think Abby could be so surprised by a stranger man who handed her a note allegedly from one of her friends. Mrs. Churchill testified at the trial: “I went down Second Street to Mr. Hall's stable and asked a man there to go for a doctor.” In an article I read she stopped a passer-by and asked him to go for a doctor.

For the people’s trustiness towards strangers at Victorian time I would like to know what Allen and other members would say.

Smudgeman wrote:Franz Wrote:
I supposed very seriously the masturbation conjecture. I think all other members of the forum could understand my seriousness by reading carefully all my posts. Yes, my conjecture is an issue regarding the sex. But we couldn't, in my opinion, avoid talking (certainly, in serious way) about Lizzie's sexual life while discussing the Borden case. As far as I know, there are several other theories regarding incestious relationship between Lizzie and Andrew, or Morse's homosexuality, or Lizzie's lesbian relationship, etc. How do you think about all these? Wouldn't you participate to any discussion where such an issue is concerned?


All of these subjects have been discussed before, and none of them have any real facts to support them. Who is to say Lizzie ever had a sex life? We will never know. In short, I do not believe that sex between anybody had any role in the murders. You are free to enjoy yourself delighting in these possibilities, just do not expect alot of members to agree with you, and don't be so offended if we don't.

I never feel offended when anyone doesn't agree with me, (I think this is the most normal thing in this forum). All your replies are and will be welcome.

Abby would have to close and triple lock the front door before going to the guest room to look for whatever item Morse needed. That is how the door was found by Bridget when Andrew arrived, and no one had any need to use the door in the meantime. Was she likely to do that with someone waiting outside on the front steps, only to have to reopen all of the locks when she returned?

There is a big difference between asking a stranger to go and find someone as opposed to handing over a valuable item like a watch.

If you don't know for certain there is a difference between Victorian times and the current day, why do you suppose there is one?

Yooper wrote:There is a big difference between asking a stranger to go and find someone as opposed to handing over a valuable item like a watch.

If you don't know for certain there is a difference between Victorian times and the current day, why do you suppose there is one?

1. Yes, Yooper, you are right, there is a big difference between asking a stranger to go and seeing a stranger to approach. But the doctor in question would see a stranger to approach him. For a valuable item like a watch (the watch in itself is only a conjecture, too), I certainly have no idea how would Abby react. I proposed only a conjecture under discussion.

2. I don't think I supposed a difference between Victorian and the current day by saying: "For the people’s trustiness towards strangers at Victorian time I would like to know what Allen and other members would say." I really don't think my words implied that it exists any difference. Allen's answer could be: "It's just the same thing." or, "In the Victorian time the things were worse than today. No one could trust a stranger."

My point was that Abby would not be asking a stranger to summon someone for her, she would be handing over a piece of personal property which wasn't hers. There is a large difference in the level of trust involved between the two concepts.

People today would be suspicious of a stranger asking for an item not belonging to either party, why would they not be suspicious of that in Victorian times? You would absolutely have to suppose a difference if you think Abby would not be suspicious. She would also have reason to be suspicious about a stranger who was trusted enough by a common friend to deliver a personal message and who also knew John Morse well enough to be trusted with a piece of his personal property.

In this day and age there are numerous ways to contact people... I could send a text to Abby and tell her to please give my watch to so and so-- or call her-- literally from anywhere I happen to be. If someone showed up at my house that I did not know and expected to take delivery of even an incidental item or a member of my family or a guest in my home, I would not give it to them without expressed instructions from the owner. I think most people would probably agree.

Franz, please keep posting your ideas and theories. Some of us who are more experienced in the case did the same thing when we first arrived here. Surely you know the trial transcripts are available from this society? Have you downloaded them and reviewed them? They can be a fascinating read. I printed them off and would read them at my leisure and make notations or hi-light items I wanted to discuss here. Recently, two copies of Rebello's work were available on Ebay. Perhaps you can keep an eye out for another one that offers international shipping.

But don't be intimidated! Post and share. Also, remember-- not to be offended or defensive when others don't agree with you or are able to show testimony that contradicts your ideas. That is what this forum is all about! The exchange of knowledge and ideas.

Likewise, people who have been at the case for years can change their opinion as to Lizzie's innocence or guilt! I have several times!

Just stick with it. There is a wealth of information here. Stefani and those who have assisted her (the list is too long and I don't want to forget anyone!) have done a remarkable job of making these official documents available to us.

Apart from buying books, Lizzie can be a very affordable and satisfying hobby -- with just what is available here for free!

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/#http://l ... nts?fp=106

I suggest starting here: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/ -- and surfing. You will have hours of wonderful resources to look at.

If the conspirator with the note wasn't a stranger to Abby?

Thank you very much, aamartin, for your information and, especially, your encouraging words!

Franz wrote:If the conspirator with the note wasn't a stranger to Abby?

Then we need to show why someone who Abby knew well enough and trusted enough to give up John Morse's watch would want to contribute to Abby's death. We also need to show why Abby would close and triple lock the door on this close and trusted friend while he waited outside, rather than inviting him in. If he (somehow magically) wasn't aware that he was being used as a pawn in this sinister plot, we need to show why this good and trusted friend didn't come forward and confess his part in the murders before his role was discovered by the police. If he was truly duped into his part in the process, he wouldn't have had much to fear. He had to be aware of the plot if he wasn't delivering a note from any friend of Abby's.

Yooper wrote:

Franz wrote:If the conspirator with the note wasn't a stranger to Abby?

Then we need to show why someone who Abby knew well enough and trusted enough to give up John Morse's watch would want to contribute to Abby's death. We also need to show why Abby would close and triple lock the door on this close and trusted friend while he waited outside, rather than inviting him in. If he (somehow magically) wasn't aware that he was being used as a pawn in this sinister plot, we need to show why this good and trusted friend didn't come forward and confess his part in the murders before his role was discovered by the police. If he was truly duped into his part in the process, he wouldn't have had much to fear. He had to be aware of the plot if he wasn't delivering a note from any friend of Abby's.

That "A man wasn't a stranger to Abby" doesn't mean he must be a "close and trusted friend".

This conspirator might have said to Abby in this way: "Good morning, Mrs. Borden, I am sent by Mrs. X, she is sick and wants you to pay her a visit. Here is her note. … Oh, another thing: I met Mr. Morse when I was coming here. He told me that he forgot something in his room. He pleased you to find it and deliver it to him. Knowing that you are gong to Mrs. X's home, Mr. Morse told me that he waits you there. It's all. Goodbye, Mrs. Borden."

He needs to be trusted enough to give Morse's watch to him, and a casual relationship isn't enough. He has to be a trusted friend .

In my last tread I supposed that the conspirator told Abby that Morse pleased Abby herself to deliver his watch to him, at Mrs. X's home. After that, the conspirator said goodbye to Abby and went away. That's why Abby locked the front door.

I don't know why Abby would believe that Morse would expect her to drop everything and deliver his watch while he waited for it. Responding to a request for assistance from a sick friend is one thing, not necessarily critical for timing, just lend assistance when time permits. But Morse's request presumes a greater urgency. If it was that important, he would have returned for the watch himself, he had no pressing business that day, nothing better to do.

If Abby expected to be away from the house for an indeterminate amount of time, why didn't she inform Bridget? Bridget would have been expected to prepare lunch for everyone in Abby's absence and Abby ordinarily told Bridget what to prepare for meals.

Where was Lizzie while Abby was being murdered?

What would have been the plan if Lizzie inadvertently went into the guest room after Abby had been killed? The murderer would have been standing there with Abby's dead body. Did Morse consider Lizzie expendable? They would have run that risk for an hour and a half as it turned out. If Lizzie had heard anything connected to Abby's murder it might well have prompted her to investigate the guest room. That's a couple of very long chances!

Yooper wrote:I don't know why Abby would believe that Morse would expect her to drop everything and deliver his watch while he waited for it. Responding to a request for assistance from a sick friend is one thing, not necessarily critical for timing, just lend assistance when time permits. But Morse's request presumes a greater urgency. If it was that important, he would have returned for the watch himself, he had no pressing business that day, nothing better to do.

If Abby expected to be away from the house for an indeterminate amount of time, why didn't she inform Bridget? Bridget would have been expected to prepare lunch for everyone in Abby's absence and Abby ordinarily told Bridget what to prepare for meals.

Where was Lizzie while Abby was being murdered?

1. I don't understand well why "Morse's request presumes a greater urgency".

2. Yes Yooper, you are right: Abby didn’t say nothing to Bridget, it might be possible that Abby thought to talk to Bridget at the very moment when she left the house by the back door. But before she could do so, before she could change her clothes, she had been killed.

3. If I understand well what I read, when Abby was killed, Lizzie was ironing her handkerchiefs, or making preparation for the ironing.

Yooper wrote:What would have been the plan if Lizzie inadvertently went into the guest room after Abby had been killed? The murderer would have been standing there with Abby's dead body. Did Morse consider Lizzie expendable? They would have run that risk for an hour and a half as it turned out. If Lizzie had heard anything connected to Abby's murder it might well have prompted her to investigate the guest room. That's a couple of very long chances!

Vey good question, Yooper! I have thought about it indeed. I think Morse and his conspirators had thought about it too. Their solution could be this one (my pure conjecture): if Lizzie or Bridget came into the guest room, the real killer would not kill them, but tell them the will affair and their murder plan. I really can't imagine for the moment the reactions of Lizzie (and Bridget), and what Morse and his conspirator would do as response to the two women's reactions. I said that they were certainly running a huge risk. They knew well this risk and they wanted to prevent Lizzie (and Bridget) from looking for Abby, that's why they invented the note.

Yooper, Morse might have thought that Bridget could be expendable in the case she came into the house. But Lizzie not.

Morse gained nothing by any of this. He didn't maintain a relationship with the girls after the murders and left them out of his will. I find it hard to believe he cared about them so much he would commit a double murder and then have no contact and leave them out of his own will. I find it hard to believe that two other people would put their necks on the line for Morse on a possible murder conviction with a plan that sloppy in planning. There is no evidence or proof of his involvement and really no facts to support it. It actually contradicts some of the facts. Some people find it suspicious that Morse's memory was so good. But if he had taken that same car before when he was in town and already knew which ones went where at what time there really is not much of a mystery. If he had ridden those cars many times before there is less of a mystery. It might not be hard to remember the number on the conductors cap if you had seen it before. Or if there was a different conductor in charge than usual that might draw his interest and make him remember even more clearly. It was something out of the ordinary. Those cars ran every day. Morse visited the family many times before that day. He visited friends and relatives around Fall River before that day. I can remember people I've ridden with on a bus and I've never needed an alibi. I can remember the bus number and where it picked me up. What time it picked me up. I could even remember what the man driving it looked like. I think too much is read into all that.

Your are right, Allen, the motive could be another one.

For Morse alibi, I read somewhere - I don't recall where exactly - that Morse permit himself to trouble a group of priests and explained them his itinerary. Before the murders occured, Morse visited many times Fall River. But If I am not mistaken, considering the span of the time, he didn't go there very often, did he?

If the murderer spent part of the night in the guest room, Morse was relatively casual about it.

Morse, Trial, p.129:
Q. You slept all night, I suppose, in that room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the guest room. Do you recall whether your door was open or not during the night's
sleep?
A. It was open.

Lizzie saw Abby in the guest room about 9:00, without the murderer present, and without Abby being aware of the murderer's presence.

Fleet, Witness Statements, p.2:
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the
bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

As to Morse's alibi, we don't like it if it is weak, we don't like it if it is strong, what the hell do we like?

Running the risk of noise being noticed during Abby's murder and the possibility of Lizzie going into her "parlor" on a whim makes this whole scenario highly unlikely, in my opinion.

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:What would have been the plan if Lizzie inadvertently went into the guest room after Abby had been killed? The murderer would have been standing there with Abby's dead body. Did Morse consider Lizzie expendable? They would have run that risk for an hour and a half as it turned out. If Lizzie had heard anything connected to Abby's murder it might well have prompted her to investigate the guest room. That's a couple of very long chances!

Vey good question, Yooper! I have thought about it indeed. I think Morse and his conspirators had thought about it too. Their solution could be this one (my pure conjecture): if Lizzie or Bridget came into the guest room, the real killer would not kill them, but tell them the will affair and their murder plan. I really can't imagine for the moment the reactions of Lizzie (and Bridget), and what Morse and his conspirator would do as response to the two women's reactions. I said that they were certainly running a huge risk. They knew well this risk and they wanted to prevent Lizzie (and Bridget) from looking for Abby, that's why they invented the note.

This presumes that Lizzie or Bridget would be rational enough at the moment to reason with, although I don't consider justification for murder a reasonable concept. The only way to save their own skins at that moment would be to kill whomever discovered them. Otherwise, without compliance on the part of the discoverer, they had killed Andrew's wife and Andrew was still alive. This would be a truly half-baked scheme.

Yooper wrote:
Fleet, Witness Statements, p.2:
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

Could you tell me which was the stairs and which was the bedroom?

Yooper wrote:
As to Morse's alibi, we don't like it if it is weak, we don't like it if it is strong, what the hell do we like?

Running the risk of noise being noticed during Abby's murder and the possibility of Lizzie going into her "parlor" on a whim makes this whole scenario highly unlikely, in my opinion.

1. There are many fabricated alibi, I think, and generally speaking, a fabricated alibi is usually perfect one. Always generally speaking, a strong alibi certainly is a good thing, but an alibi “too” strong could seem suspicious.

2. To Commit a murder one will run always some risk to some extent. As I said to Allen, the motive could be another one, for which even Lizzie could be expendable. But Morse tried all he could (with the note) to avoid Lizzie's (and Bridget's) involvment.

You have to have at least some proof based on facts for a theory to be considered valid, in my opinion.It has to be able to fit with the known facts as well. Not contradict the known facts. It shouldn't be all conjecture. Otherwise everyone in the world becomes a possible suspect. I could say Mrs. Churchill committed the murders. That's why she was watching out her windows that morning. She admits she saw Andrew leave. She admits she saw Bridget outside washing the windows. She admits leaving the house to supposedly get some items at the store during the time of the murders. She was the first one on the scene after the murders. Why was she watching the Borden house so closely? I'm not trying to offend anyone or make light of anyone. I'm just saying facts are a good thing. Conjecture is just stabbing in the dark hoping to hit something.

I agree, this is classic inductive reasoning. Contradictions are either ignored or twisted to fit the desired outcome.

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:
Fleet, Witness Statements, p.2:
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

Could you tell me which was the stairs and which was the bedroom?

This is your conjecture, you tell me.

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:
As to Morse's alibi, we don't like it if it is weak, we don't like it if it is strong, what the hell do we like?

Running the risk of noise being noticed during Abby's murder and the possibility of Lizzie going into her "parlor" on a whim makes this whole scenario highly unlikely, in my opinion.

1. There are many fabricated alibi, I think, and generally speaking, a fabricated alibi is usually perfect one. Always generally speaking, a strong alibi certainly is a good thing, but an alibi “too” strong could seem suspicious.

2. To Commit a murder one will run always some risk to some extent. As I said to Allen, the motive could be another one, for which even Lizzie could be expendable. But Morse tried all he could (with the note) to avoid Lizzie's (and Bridget's) involvment.

1. The truth is the truth, regardless of whatever subjective scale we might apply to it.

2. If Morse were going to involve two other people in the murders, why not just kill Andrew and Abby while they slept? Intruders coming and going in broad daylight makes it look like an inside job and almost guarantees Lizzie would be suspected.

Yooper wrote:

Franz wrote:

Yooper wrote:
Fleet, Witness Statements, p.2:
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

Could you tell me which was the stairs and which was the bedroom?

This is your conjecture, you tell me.

Yooper, to be honest, I don't understand well your reply.

Yooper, If Morse killed Abby and Andrew during the night while they were sleeping, either by himselg, or by an intruder, Morse himself would be suspected, I think.

Allen and Yooper, would you like to tell me, in my theory what contradict the known facts? Thank you very much!

Franz,

I think it is time for you to show the facts which support the conjecture because, in the absence of that, we only have one more fairy tale. Provide the quotations or at least the location in the primary sources for all of your conclusions.

Franz wrote:Yooper, If Morse killed Abby and Andrew during the night while they were sleeping, either by himselg, or by an intruder, Morse himself would be suspected, I think.

But he didn't kill them in the night Franz. Abby was killed around 9 am in the morning, and it was not done by Morse. He was not there.

Smudgeman wrote:

Franz wrote:Yooper, If Morse killed Abby and Andrew during the night while they were sleeping, either by himselg, or by an intruder, Morse himself would be suspected, I think.

But he didn't kill them in the night Franz. Abby was killed around 9 am in the morning, and it was not done by Morse. He was not there.

I know. i said: "If..."