Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Can we talk about this? It really sticks in my mind and only gets mentioned briefly here (I know there was a thread devoted to it, but this one is more specific.)

There is much discussion about the murderer leaving the guest room door open. Abby lay there for over an house in 85 plus degree heat (August) with a giant pool of blood spreading around her head, coagulating into a dark jelly like substance.

Why wouldn't Lizzie have SMELLED this when she walked by? (To take up laundy, to baste the loop, etc.) When Dr. Bowen and the others came over (before the police) they also apparently couldn't detect an odd smell in the house. Going up the front stairs, neither lady (Bridgett or Mrs. Churchhill) could smell Abby's rotting body under the bed....WHY NOT?)

The olfactory sense is a fascinating one...it's connected to brain structures associated strongly with memory. I have a seizure disorder, and sometimes before, I have one, I'lll think I smell something that isn't there; smoke, or mold, for example. But I digress. Did people in 1892 have less of a sense of smell than they do NOW, with all our deodorants, daily showers, shampoos, air fresheners, etc.?

I know that a friend of my daughter's that doesn't ever use deodorant. I think she smells horrible, but she has been doing this so long she can no longer smell herself, or so I'm told. Could that be the case with society in general?

Heck, I don't understand how they could have chamber pots underneath their own beds. They couldn't smell the contents, festering away for the rest of a hot night?

I know this isn't exactly a pleasant subject to talk about, but if anyone has any insight on this topic, I'd be very interested to know.

That's a good question! I would think there would be a smell. Dead bodies do smell, especially in heat. I'm surprised there was nothing on it.

Great question, NancyDrew!

Unfortunately probably one that has no definite easy answer. I've searched the Net for one and there are just too many factors that come into play. There is a good site on Wikipedia that discusses decomposition. I wish it had more to do with human decomposition. I assume the blood would begin to smell almost immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition#Fresh

Whether the guest room was open or closed could also be a factor.

Pass the Febreze please!

I'm not sure about how long it would take before blood started to smell. I'm not sure how far advanced a body would be in decomposition after only two hours even though it was very hot. Decomposition starts at death but it actually takes awhile for the body to start emitting odors. The gases have to build up. The flesh has to rot. There are several hunters in my family. Several are avid deer hunters. There are some who think this is cruel and I'm not trying to start a debate over whether hunting deer is cruel. But I guess you could say I've been around what could be called death all my life. Anyone who is a hunter has been. From the time it takes to bring them home, especially if they had to be tracked afterwards, and then prepare them for refrigeration and cooking would roughly be as long if not longer than Abby had been in the guest room. I have never noticed a strong odor of death or of blood. Several years ago I worked in a nursing home. There were a few residents that passed away when I worked there. The body would be cleaned up and the proper authorities and the family would be notified. The family generally passed along their wishes for what was to be done with their deceased loved ones. They would then make arrangements for the body to be picked up. In the cases where there were no next of kin the body was taken away and usually taken care of by the state. I know that the conditions may not have been the same as when Abby was killed, but I never noticed any smell from the bodies of the residents either.

Anyone who is interested in the decomposition of bodies should look up information about the body farms. The body farm is a site that has been set up for the forensic research of how bodies decompose, what happens to them as they decompose in different settings, and how it affects the environment around them. The bodies are put in a variety of scenarios that replicate crime scenes. CSI teams sometimes use it to replicate crime scenes in an attempt to better understand what happened in their cases. The bodies used have been donated to science.

They might be accustomed to being around foul odors such as slop pails and buckets with bloody mentrual rags. I don't think there was enough blood on Abby to stink up the whole house.

I know that a friend of my daughter's that doesn't ever use deodorant. I think she smells horrible, but she has been doing this so long she can no longer smell herself, or so I'm told. Could that be the case with society in general?

I'm a non smoker and 2 women I used to work with were smokers .They would go into the smokers break room for lunch and they would , to me , reek of smoke . I finally commented to one of them about how strong they smelled of smoke and they look at each other and said " I don't smell anything " and were of course insulted that I make this up .

hyacinth wrote:I know that a friend of my daughter's that doesn't ever use deodorant. I think she smells horrible, but she has been doing this so long she can no longer smell herself, or so I'm told. Could that be the case with society in general?

I'm a non smoker and 2 women I used to work with were smokers .They would go into the smokers break room for lunch and they would , to me , reek of smoke . I finally commented to one of them about how strong they smelled of smoke and they look at each other and said " I don't smell anything " and were of course insulted that I make this up .

As an x-smoker-- this is true. I can smell smoke on people now and used to not be able to smell it on others or myself

Would Abby have bled that much ? Since she was dead and her heart not pumping blood wouldn't the blood ooze rather than pour ? I haven't seen anything about the blood other than the splatter . I'm just asking if anybody knows .

And was there a window in the guest room ? If there was , was it open or closed ? I would think on a hot day it would be open if there was one . And , if there were a window what ever smell might go out there .
Also with a wood burning stove in the kitchen I imagine the smell from that would cover a lot of other smells .
Just thinking in print .

I have read some web sites where it says blood smells metallic-- but there doesn't seem to be a consensus. Or a site that is detailed.

I too have worked in a nursing home-- and the thought that when a person dies they empty their bowel/bladder is not true. It might be in some cases, but in all the cases of people passing away when I worked there, not once did we have this happen. Of course many of the people who died there were elderly and ill and not eating what most would consider a normal amount.

hyacinth wrote:I know that a friend of my daughter's that doesn't ever use deodorant. I think she smells horrible, but she has been doing this so long she can no longer smell herself, or so I'm told. Could that be the case with society in general?

I'm a non smoker and 2 women I used to work with were smokers .They would go into the smokers break room for lunch and they would , to me , reek of smoke . I finally commented to one of them about how strong they smelled of smoke and they look at each other and said " I don't smell anything " and were of course insulted that I make this up .

OOPS that first part was supposed to be a quote from NancyDrews post .

Smudgeman wrote:They might be accustomed to being around foul odors such as slop pails and buckets with bloody mentrual rags. I don't think there was enough blood on Abby to stink up the whole house.

I agree, I doubt that people in 1892 were as concerned with bad or off odors as we are now. Mills and factories were not regulated to the degree they are now, if at all. There was no real concern about air pollution. The roads were littered with horse exhaust, just crossing the street may have resembled a form of tap dancing. Many people kept horses on the premises, possibly other animals. Compare what was available back then as options for deodorant with what you find on the shelf nowadays in the stealth and beauty department in a large chain store. People in 1892 might well have been less likely to question an odd odor than we would now.

NancyDrew, I read somewhere, if my memory is correct, that, according to the new discoveries, the temperature that day is little less than 80, less hot than usually believed.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will look at the body farm info, Allen.

The fact that the house had a wood burning stove---that answer hit the mark for me. My parents used to have one, and it was all you could smell coming into the house. My mom could be frying garlic in oil, and you couldn't smell it over that stove.

I wish, so much, that I could go back in time just one day to see what life really felt like in Victorian-era New England. We're putting our opinons, based on the context of the modern world we live in, on a situation that happened over a hundred years ago. I was re-reading Lizzie's inquest testimony (for the 100th time!) and was struck by the difference in everyday language...the syntax, expressions, way of saying things. So very different than now.

"Direct some wrappers" I think that means filling out envelopes, right?
"Hung up on the reefer" No idea what a reefer was in 1892. 1962, yes, but not 1892.

Aamartin wrote:

hyacinth wrote:I know that a friend of my daughter's that doesn't ever use deodorant. I think she smells horrible, but she has been doing this so long she can no longer smell herself, or so I'm told. Could that be the case with society in general?

I'm a non smoker and 2 women I used to work with were smokers .They would go into the smokers break room for lunch and they would , to me , reek of smoke . I finally commented to one of them about how strong they smelled of smoke and they look at each other and said " I don't smell anything " and were of course insulted that I make this up .

As an x-smoker-- this is true. I can smell smoke on people now and used to not be able to smell it on others or myself

As another x-smoker --- this is true.

Harry wrote: Whether the guest room was open or closed could also be a factor.

I agree. And I think all other replies offered very valid ideas as well.

If the killer were an intruder and was hiding in the guest room with the door closed, he would have left it open only few minutes before he killed Andrew. So Abby's blood smell could have no time to spread widely. And then, Andrew's body was found very quickly. In view of his body, the people, (in addition, under the chock, and all those movements, coming in and going out of the house), could have no room in the mind that the blood smell could also come from another body other than that of Andrew.

(I love to read your work or life experience when you consider the Borden case.)

I'm skeptical that there would have been that much smell to cover up after that relative short period of time. I've been near animals that were being butchered in preparation for cooking that had sat longer than that and noticed no overpowering smell. And the windows in the guest room were not open. The witnesses testified that they were found closed and the blinds were shut.

Allen wrote:I'm skeptical that there would have been that much smell to cover up after that relative short period of time. I've been near animals that were being butchered in preparation for cooking that had sat longer than that and noticed no overpowering smell. And the windows in the guest room were not open. The witnesses testified that they were found closed and the blinds were shut.

The windows' being closed and the blinds' being shut would be more efficient to prevent hot air enters.

I have an idea about the guest room door's being open or closed, in correlation with the smell topic.

If Lizzie did it, she could have closed the door, in order to prevent the smell's spreading, menwhile, she could feel more in safety (Yooper, I agree that, if Morse returned earlier and went to the guest room, there would be no difference if the door was closed or open, but it was a psychological matter, I think). And then, after she killed Andrew, she cleaned up herself and hid the weapon, and went to the guest room to reopen the door, so that Abby's boby could be found more easily. And then, she rushed to call Bridget.

Just an idea. I am not sure if it could be considered as a possibility to explain the door's open, if Lizzie did it.

NancyDrew wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone. I will look at the body farm info, Allen.

The fact that the house had a wood burning stove---that answer hit the mark for me. My parents used to have one, and it was all you could smell coming into the house. My mom could be frying garlic in oil, and you couldn't smell it over that stove.

I wish, so much, that I could go back in time just one day to see what life really felt like in Victorian-era New England. We're putting our opinons, based on the context of the modern world we live in, on a situation that happened over a hundred years ago. I was re-reading Lizzie's inquest testimony (for the 100th time!) and was struck by the difference in everyday language...the syntax, expressions, way of saying things. So very different than now.

"Direct some wrappers" I think that means filling out envelopes, right?
"Hung up on the reefer" No idea what a reefer was in 1892. 1962, yes, but not 1892.

Directing wrappers referred to addressing paper sleeves which the newspaper was put in for delivery. They would have been for 92 Second St.

I don't know what reefer refers to, the only thing I can come up with is refrigerator.

Lizzie's inquest testimony page 69 (27):

Q. When you went out to the barn, where did you leave your father?
A. He had laid down on the sitting room lounge, taken off his shoes, and put on his slippers, and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way.

A reefer referred to a Victorian man's coat.

Franz wrote:I have an idea about the guest room door's being open or closed, in correlation with the smell topic.

If Lizzie did it, she could have closed the door, in order to prevent the smell's spreading, menwhile, she could feel more in safety (Yooper, I agree that, if Morse returned earlier and went to the guest room, there would be no difference if the door was closed or open, but it was a psychological matter, I think). And then, after she killed Andrew, she cleaned up herself and hid the weapon, and went to the guest room to reopen the door, so that Abby's boby could be found more easily. And then, she rushed to call Bridget.

Just an idea. I am not sure if it could be considered as a possibility to explain the door's open, if Lizzie did it.

We will never know if the door was opened or closed, because all we have is Lizzie's statements. We do know that the door was opened when the ladies went upstairs to look for Abby. The door did not open itself so I consider this to be one of Lizzie's many lies. Once she started telling them, she could not go back and contradict herself, and I think she caught herself in a web of lies that could not be proven otherwise because bridget was outside washing windows. She knew that nobody else was in the house so she could say whatever she pleased and not be contradicted by any witnesses.

Exactly, Smudgeman. Just because Lizzie said the door was closed when she came downstairs doesn't mean it actually was. All we can know is that it was open when Bridgette and Churchhill found Abby.

I also find it curious that Lizzie claims her father had taken off his shoes, when they WEREN'T. (He died with his boots on, to borrow a phrase from the old west.) I wonder why she said this?

But I digress. The topic of the thread is 'smells.' No one apparently noticed any odd smell coming from upstairs. If they had (by they I mean Dr. Bowen, Bridgette, and Mrs. Churchhill) I think one of them would have mentioned it ("My God Lizzie, what is that awful odor coming from the front stairs?") But they didn't.

Again, I point to luck, or happenstance. I've heard that sometimes, when a person dies, the body voids the bowels. If that had occurred when Abby was killed, Lizzie would have had quite a problem on her hands. Andrew might have noticed it immediately upon his arrival home at 10:40. He might have gone up the front stairs to investigate. Or he might have simply inquired why that awful smell was upstairs, at which point Lizzie might have had to come up with another lie.

There was a discussion with the thread entitled "Andrew's shoes" which may explain the Congress shoes Andrew was wearing when he was murdered.

Neither Andrew nor Bridget was concerned with a blood odor. After that, Andrew's death would have explained any blood odor, assuming there was one.

I think no one mentioned any bad smells because there simply weren't any. Not everyone empties their bowel and bladder when they die. And even if they did, that doesn't mean it could be smelled from any kind of a distance. Although, I would think that mutton would have produced some rather nasty dung...

As I said before, I worked in a nursing home 20+ years ago-- sometimes you could smell a code brown, sometimes you couldn't. And not everyone (no one in my experience) emptied anything when they died

Aamartin wrote:I think no one mentioned any bad smells because there simply weren't any. Not everyone empties their bowel and bladder when they die. And even if they did, that doesn't mean it could be smelled from any kind of a distance. Although, I would think that mutton would have produced some rather nasty dung...

As I said before, I worked in a nursing home 20+ years ago-- sometimes you could smell a code brown, sometimes you couldn't. And not everyone (no one in my experience) emptied anything when they died

What troubles me more is the blood smell that Abby's body could have spread (she was lying in a pool of blood).

I have been in a situation where there was a HUGE amount of blood-- and didn't smell a thing.

This is another case of we don't know-- we don't know if it smelled at all. There is no testimony, witness statements, nothing-- to indicate Abby or Andrew smelled from being killed.

In any case, if I were at the place of Lizzie, being an amateur killer like Lizzie, after killing Abby and knowing I would wait in that same house for more than one hour to kill another person, I would instinctively close the door, without considering other reasons. I would feel more in safety.

Indeed, it was just the question regarding the guest room door's open made me think a lot, and consider with a different point of view many other details of the case, and then, little by little, from a "guiltist" I become an "innocentist".

I'm a Registered Nurse. First, blood only smells in very very large quantities, and even then only of a vague iron smell, not bad. Second, with chamber pots and less attention to body odor back then, any bowel evacuation by her would have gone unnoticed under her clothes. at least at more than arms length. Even in high heat, no decomp. would be smelled for much longer than the length of time she laid there.

PossumPie wrote:I'm a Registered Nurse. First, blood only smells in very very large quantities, and even then only of a vague iron smell, not bad. Second, with chamber pots and less attention to body odor back then, any bowel evacuation by her would have gone unnoticed under her clothes. at least at more than arms length. Even in high heat, no decomp. would be smelled for much longer than the length of time she laid there.

Agreed on all points. Many of these points are points I had a tried to make in my posts also. I don't believe there was much of a smell at all. People do not necessarily evacuate their bowels. I never saw that to happen with any of the residents that passed away in my experience either. Both my great grandfather, and later my great grandmother, passed away in the care of my grandmother in her home many years ago while I was still young. She said that neither of them had evacuated their bowels. They looked as if they were sleeping and there was little indication otherwise from just being near them. I never noticed a strong odor of blood or anything else on the animals that I came into contact with and they had sometimes been laying for longer than Abby was in the guest room. Blood is blood whether animal or human. Blood to me smells like holding a handful of pennies and putting your nose to it. It doesn't have an overpowering smell even in large quantities as PossumPie said. And from all of the sources I've found it would have taken much longer than that short period of time for any smell of decomposition to occur. The smells of decomposition occur due to a build up of gases in the body and from the body beginning to putrefy or rot. From all of the sources I have found,including information about the bodies at the body farms, this takes a couple of days. Not a couple of hours. So I was skeptical there would be any smell that was noticeable at all.

Great post, Allen. I don't even know if Abby's blood could be smelled from the landing. Mrs. Churchill and Bridget make no mention of an odor.

When my mother was living with me she cut her leg in her bedroom and it got all over the carpet. Even with the cleanup there was a coppery smell in the room, and a couple of days later the smell turned bad, like decomposing matter.

Angel wrote:When my mother was living with me she cut her leg in her bedroom and it got all over the carpet. Even with the cleanup there was a coppery smell in the room, and a couple of days later the smell turned bad, like decomposing matter.

Well, even you said "A couple of days..." and in all honesty blood coagulates and dries quickly and has no smell then. I don't know what was going on in your mother's case, perhaps a reaction between the blood and some cleaning product. I was a volunteer with a local ambulance company, and saw a lot of bloody roads, carpets, cement, and tile floors and never smelled anything 'strong'.

Aamartin and PossumPie, I certainly don’t want to question your knowledge about blood smell, acquired thanks to your professional experiences. But I think that one who ignores this (like me) would very naturally worry about the smell’s spreading in view of a huge quantity of blood that he / she never saw before. Could Lizzie have had your knowledge about blood smell? I doubt very much. In addition, after killing Abby, Lizzie (if she did it) would have had to wait her father’s return for more than one hour in the same house in which Abby’s body was lying in one of its room. In such a condition she (an amateur killer) didn’t care to close the guest room door when she was leaving there? Highly unlikely for me.

Franz wrote:Aamartin and PossumPie, I certainly don’t want to question your knowledge about blood smell, acquired thanks to your professional experiences. But I think that one who ignores this (like me) would very naturally worry about the smell’s spreading in view of a huge quantity of blood that he / she never saw before. Could Lizzie have had your knowledge about blood smell? I doubt very much. In addition, after killing Abby, Lizzie (if she did it) would have had to wait her father’s return for more than one hour in the same house in which Abby’s body was lying in one of its room. In such a condition she (an amateur killer) didn’t care to close the guest room door when she was leaving there? Highly unlikely for me.

Franz, I would assume that Lizzie did know about whether or not blood smells. She experienced it every month for years. All of the women in the house did.

Yes, Allen, but a huge quantity of blood is different, I think.

(Another question: I just posted a reply for another topic, and the forum site demonstrated that I am the last one who posted something, but my reply doesn't figure there, do you have any idea?)

Allen, I found it, thanks.

Blood is blood. It smells the same whether it's in large or small quantities. There is no difference. It does not have an overpowering smell even in large quantities and after having sat to congeal for over an hour.

Menstrual blood usually does not amount to small spots here and there. It's a constant flow. A constant flow on your person that you carry around with you all day long. To not be to delicate about it, it's blood that she would handle herself in changing rags. You're saying that smell would be less noticeable than blood being on the floor in an upstairs bedroom? Blood itself does not have an overpowering smell, in my experience. And the laundry was only done once a week during that time. It was too time consuming a chore to be done every day. So I'm going to guess that days worth of bloody menstrual rags doesn't amount to a small amount of blood. The rags could have in all probability sat there for a few days instead of a few hours before being washed. So again, I assume Lizzie knew what blood smelled like.

Times those bloody rags by about three if all of them happened to be menstruating at the same time.

Andrew apparently didn't notice a blood smell when he arrived. Bridget didn't mention anything about a blood odor, nor did anyone else who was there prior to Abby's body being found. No questions were asked about noticing a blood odor from anyone during the legal proceedings.

Not only that-- but they could have very well dressed their own chickens or other meat-- it didn't come like it does now. They probably had more of an idea of what blood smelled like or didn't smell like than we do