Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This is Morse’s witness statement, registered by John Fleet (p. 3) on August 4th: “… and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around of house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths.”

Since Fleet noted the statement in direct discourse form, I consider it as reliable: they should be the original words of Morse, or at least in a nearest form to his original words.

The last phrase – “That was the first I knew of their deaths” – is for me curious. Fleet didn’t ask Morse: “Was that the first you knew of their deaths?” If so, Morse could have answered: “(Yes,) That was the first I knew of their deaths.” On the contrary, if someone had told him the news when he was returning to the house, he could have wanted to give Fleet an additional information: “In fact that was not the first I knew of their deaths. On my way of return, a gentleman had told me the horrible news.” But the fact is that he was told the news for the first time in the yard, as he himself said: “Saw a number of persons around of house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed”, so, that was certainly the first he “knew of their deaths.” I wonder, why did Morse add that unnecessary phrase? He could have finished his statement without the last phrase, and the meaning would have remained equally clear.

I gave myself two explanations:

1. Morse was innocent. He made that statement (the last phrase) in order to explain better the situation to the police. The last phrase was unnecessary, but he said it. The thing happened in this way.

2. Morse was guilty, he organized the double murder. With that unnecessary phrase he made, consciously or unconsciously, an auto-defence. The meaning hidden under that apparently innocent phrase could be: “That was not the first I knew of their deaths when I discussed with my conspirators our murder plan (therefore I foresaw their deaths); that was not the first I knew of their deaths when I was in the town this morning (therefore I imagined my conspirator killing them to death); that was the first I knew of their deaths only a couple of hours ago when they told me the bad news in the yard of the Borden house. So, I knew nothing before, I am innocent.”

Since for many reasons I believe that Lizzie was most probably innocent, and Morse most probably guilty, I consider the second explanation the preferable one.

In philological study scholars must avoid the error of forcing the text, in other words, the error of searching the meaning that the text hasn’t under its words. Am I committing such an error? I post here my reflections under discussion.

Franz:

You've spent a lot of time combing through John Morse...let me ask you: assuming the second explanation above, what was his MOTIVE? I think you have mentioned before that it was because he felt his nieces were being treated unfairly, is that correct? If so, I think it is a very, VERY weak motive for a heinous double murder.

NancyDrew wrote:Franz:

You've spent a lot of time combing through John Morse...let me ask you: assuming the second explanation above, what was his MOTIVE? I think you have mentioned before that it was because he felt his nieces were being treated unfairly, is that correct? If so, I think it is a very, VERY weak motive for a heinous double murder.

I concur with Nancy Drew...All of this matters little without motive. We all have means and opportunity to kill every day, but no motive! Without motive, why would he kill?

Hello Nancydrew and PossumPie, I copry here an extract of the new version of my theory, already posted in the forum:

17. Motive: Morse and Andrew’s friendship was apparently cordial and sincere, and in fact it wasn’t so. Morse thought he had been badly betrayed by Andrew, and wanted to avenge himself.

P.S.:

1. Morse could have been innocent. In this case, I must assume that the two guilty men, at least one of them, should have known the interior structure of the Borden house. They should have known Morse’s visit to the house and that he slept in the guest room so that they could have profited his visit to realize their murder plan. In this case, I must reconsider the motive of the murder. But for the moment I tend to think Morse was the organizer of the double murder because of his too perfect alibi testimony and his suspicious behaviors when he returned to the Borden house after the murders had happened.

NancyDrew wrote:Franz:

You've spent a lot of time combing through John Morse...

NancyDrew, I think the contrary: we have spent too little time through John Morse. He merits a more careful examination.

PossumPie wrote:

NancyDrew wrote:Franz:

You've spent a lot of time combing through John Morse...let me ask you: assuming the second explanation above, what was his MOTIVE? I think you have mentioned before that it was because he felt his nieces were being treated unfairly, is that correct? If so, I think it is a very, VERY weak motive for a heinous double murder.

I concur with Nancy Drew...All of this matters little without motive. We all have means and opportunity to kill every day, but no motive! Without motive, why would he kill?

Yes, NancyDrew and PossumPie, I think that whoever was the author of the murders in the Borden case, there was a motive. Andrew had a bad reputation in his business affairs. I would not be surprised if one day it were proved that the relation between Andrew and his brother-in-law Morse was not as cordial as it seemed.

And I permit me to open a parenthese here: there are killers who kill without precise motives. Certainly, the Borden case was different. I tend to think an intruder killed Abby and Andrew, and I explained when, how and from where the intruder entered in the Borden house in the revised version of my theory. I will be happy to know your opinions. Was Morse the organizer of the murders? Could David Anthony a possible "candidate"? The question is open, I think. We are not obliged to limit our mind to nothing, right?

Franz: You've come under heavy criticism here. Many of your theories lack support; actual evidence. I am however, intrigued by your speculation, and I'm not as likely to get upset with you as others. Therefore, allow me to make some comments of my own:

I've been interested in the Lizzie Borden case since I was 13 years old. It was the 1975 movie, starting Elizabeth Montgomery, that started everything; then I found out that my aunt had purchased a bed at an estate auction that supposedly came from Maplecroft. From there on, I started digging in my local library. This was before the internet, and research was much more difficult. I remember reference librarians coming up with a handful of books, and no more. If I wanted to study actual newspaper accounts, I would have to visit a university library, and I didn't have access to those.

For years, I thought Lizzie was innocent. The lack of blood on her was my biggest reason for thinking so. How could anyone have murdered a man a mere 20 minutes before calling for help and not have a spot on her..not anywhere?

But then I visited the Borden house. My mind slowly began to change. I suggest that if you some to the states, you do as well. It is an odd house, with an eerie feeling to it. One thing is for certain; there is no way a body falling to the floor (Abby) would NOT be heard by Lizzie.

But then came the pictures; ones I had not looked at in great detail before. Abby's body does NOT appear as it she fell. It appears she was crouching, kneeling and looking under the bed, then struck from behind (although the skin flap on her face is a mystery). Look at her shoes. Who falls to the ground and has their feet slanted upwards like that? No, I decided. She was not struck while standing. She was already on her knees, and she was in a scrunched up. Someone came up softly behind her and bashed in her skull. And what a bashing it was! 18 times. EIGHTEEN. Far too much..."overkill" I guess it is called. I flip flopped again. Only Lizzie bore the kind of hatred towards Abby that would engender such passion. Yes, It had to be Lizzie.

And then I began to seriously re-read the witness statements. The inquest testimony. The trial transcripts. And I will admit to you, as I have before, that John Viccium Morse stood out like a sore thumb. I am repeating myself here, and I know that others disagree with my interpretation of these facts, but I will have my say nonetheless. He bothers me. I have questions:

1. Why didn't Lizzie greet him when he arrived? This was a connection to her mother...her ONLY connection (well, besides Emma.) I would think she would have wanted to say hello to him. It is as if she went out of her way to avoid any contact with him. Certainly, upon arriving home the night before the murders (around 9, right?) she could have stopped into the sitting room or whereever they were talking and simply said "Good evening Uncle John. How lovely to see you." If the Bordens were well mannered enough to accommodate an unexpected house guest, then one would think a well bred young woman like Lizzie would have been seen as RUDE by not acknowledging him, wouldn't she?

2. The visit to his neice and nephew. One was sick, one was away, I hope I'm correct about this. And yet he sat there, with his relatives...almost killing time, waiting. For what?

3. His memory. And what a memory it was. He knew the street car number, the number on the man's cap, his arrival time, when he left. He knew all of it in perfect picture recall...and yet, he isn't quite sure when he was told the Bordens were dead. He wasn't quite sure what was going on around the house. I know it was a busy street. I know there were lots of people, and horses, and noise, and mud. But I simply do NOT believe he had NO idea something was wrong when he arrived. I simply do not believe that he casually strolled into the yard and ate pears while this commotion was going on. All Mrs. Churchhill had to do was look out her window at Lizzie to know something bad had happened. Are we to believe that a man with a photographic memory and astute powers of perception didn't pick up ANY "vibes" as he approached the house? There were no young children running past him yelling "there's been killing at the Borden house!" that he didn't hear anyone say anything...nothing at all? My gut tells me there is something wrong with that scenario. He knew.

4. Motive: This bothers me also. Because I cannot figure out what his was. If he wanted to get revenge on Andrew, why not hit him where it really hurt---by stealing from him? Money was all that mattered to Andrew Borden; why not run the farm into the ground, or skim off the top, or a hundred other ways he could have cheated him. Is there any proof he and Lizzie saw each other again...years after the murders? Do we have any way of knowing if she could have secretly funneled money to him? Again, I'm back to the relationship between Lizzie and her Uncle. What was going on between them?

Much of this is rambling. It's early in the morning, but I wanted to respond to you today. Thank you for your interest in the Lizzie case. It has certainly livened up the board again!

One more thing...one of the witness statements has John Morse, upon learning of the deaths of Abby and Andrew, rushing into the house yelling "Lizzie!".

Does it not strike anyone as odd that he would call out for a niece who didn't even deem him important enough to acknowledge upon his arrival the day before?

Hello NancyDrew,

1. The criticism is and will be always welcome for me.

2. I think that when Abby was killed in the guest room, Bridget, most probably, was engaging conversation with Mary, Kelly's girl.

3. If Abby fell from a kneeling postion (I think we two agree on this point, right?), and at that moment, if someone were in the water closet of the cellar, could he hear the falling noise?

4. For the question of the overkill, I copy here a paragraph of my theory:

Morse established a solid alibi for himself. On the other hand, he asked the killer to kill as brutal as possible his two victims, that’s why Abby received 19 blows, Andrew 10, even though the very first blow in each case killed the victim immediately. Morse wished that the police, in view of the extreme ferocity and brutality of the crime, would believe that only a man could be capable of such a horrible crime, and therefore would not suspect the two women in the house: Lizzie and Bridget.

NancyDrew wrote:One more thing...one of the witness statements has John Morse, upon learning of the deaths of Abby and Andrew, rushing into the house yelling "Lizzie!".

Does it not strike anyone as odd that he would call out for a niece who didn't even deem him important enough to acknowledge upon his arrival the day before?

I have said, even though Morse prapared himself "a few minutes" before entering on the stage, he was still a bad actor: he even said (asked) to Mrs. Churchill: "What (?)" when the latter told him (for the third time) the murder news. He had known the news outside of the house: told by Bridget and Mr. Sawyer twice!

And always according to Mr. Sawyer: "My God", he (Morse) said, "what kind of a God have we got that will permit a deed like this to be done?" Something like that.

Doesn't it sound a little theatrical to you?

Nancy, I agree with you on most points. If Morse was guilty, and had someone else do it (it seems virtually impossible that HE did it) why not establish an alibi even better...stay home. He wouldn't even have been considered if he was not even around. Why come to a couple's house, then have them killed? You would be a suspect for sure. I too have a hard time with the "memory" factor...who remembers all that detail? I still don't see any solid evidence that he was angry, or hateful of the Bordens. Heck, he visited regularly.
Franz, try to form your hypothesis like a chain, forging each link. show a motive, then list facts that support it. Show the opportunity to kill, then list facts supporting them. You will be in a better place to have people consider your opinions...I like your enthusiasm though!!!!

PossumPie wrote:Nancy, I agree with you on most points. If Morse was guilty, and had someone else do it (it seems virtually impossible that HE did it) why not establish an alibi even better...stay home. He wouldn't even have been considered if he was not even around. Why come to a couple's house, then have them killed? ...

PossumPie, did you notice that the guest room is a crucial place in the murders? If Morse didn't come to the Borden house, is it possible to realize all the plan (assuming he was guilty)?

Ok, so no one picked up on a point I made, so I'm going to repeat it here. At the risk of being repetitive:

1. WHY didn't Lizzie greet Uncle John...or speak to him AT ALL during his visit, and before the murders?

2. Assuming that #1 is completely true and correct, does it not seem odd that Uncle John would think to call our for Lizzie upon entering the house?

Did he kill the Bordens? Of course not. He had a rock solid alibi. Was something odd going on between he and Lizzie? Incest? Collaboration? Scheming? I think it is entirely possible.

From the Witness Statements, John Fleet, regarding John Morse:

"Conversed with John V. Morse at the A. J. Borden house. Said that he was A. J. Borden’s brother-
in-law, his sister was Mr. Borden’s first wife. Had always been on friendly terms with the family, and
had frequently made visits to his house. “Last night I stopped here, and slept in the room where Mrs.
Borden was found dead. I arrived here yesterday afternoon from New Bedford. Called upon Mr. Borden.
Afterward got a carriage from Kirby’s stable, and went to Mr. Borden’s farm, arriving at the house
again about 8.30 P. M. We sat up I think until about ten o’clock. Went to bed in the room, as before
stated. Got up about six o’clock this morning, got breakfast about seven o’clock, stopped in the house
till about 8.40 A. M. Leaving Mr. Borden at the door, went to the Post Office, wrote a letter from there,
went as far as Third street on Bedford, from Third to Pleasant street, through Pleasant street to No. 4
Weybosset. Street, arriving there about 9.30 A. M. Saw relatives from the West. Remained at the house
from 9.30 to 11:20 A. M., or thereabouts. Left, taking horse car, and stopped at the corner of Pleasant
and Second streets, and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of
persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew
of their deaths.”"

My goodness, what a memory! It's as if he rehearsed it.
Arrive 8:30 pm.
Sat up until 10:00
Got up at 6:00 am
Breakfast at 7:00 am
Left house at 8:40 am
Wnte to Post office, Third Street, Pleasant Street, Weybosset Street.
Arrive 9:30 am.
Left 11:20 am

..."and was told that Mr. snd Mrs. Borden was killed."

This is only my opinion, but it strikes me as odd that he did not ask HOW they were killed. That would be the first thing I would want to know. (Franz I'm stealing from your post here, I"m sure you won't mind.) If I happened upon a relative's house and was told that people I loved and had JUST seen had been killed, the first thing I would ask is either: "What happened?" or (more likely) "How?"

I know, I know. There is nothing more than circumspect behavior here. There is no smoking gun. But we are here to speculate, are we not? To render opinions? Well, in my opinion, John Vinnicum Morse knew more than he told. I'm not even sure where to go beyond making that statement.

Franz, your co-conspirators theory is interesting, but there isn't one shred of evidence to support it...sorry, my friend, but 'tis true, in this gal's opinion. Lizzie committed the crimes. She either had help, or there are facts that were withheld (I've always wondered, for example, if Bridget lied. Maybe when Lizzie called her downstairs, there WAS blood on her..and Bridget then helped her clean it up, and subsequently kept her mouth shut.) No one but Lizzie had such STRONG motive, clear-cut opportunity, and means. The latter is the hardest to figure out...the disposal of the weapon, the perfect cleanliness of Lizzie's hands and body. But it isn't impossible, or even improbable.

I don't know what role John Morse played in the killings. His relationship with Lizzie intrigues me...and I think I'm going to pore over the documents again (damn, I want that Rebello book!)

I hope I haven't offended anyone with anything I've said.

Nancy Drew, I will address your points, if you address mine. What was the motive???
Not seeing his niece isn't unusual, the family was feeling ill, no one felt 100% He had just visited previously, no reason to seek out Lizzie especially. I understood they were never particularly close. He came in the evening, left in the morning, no chance to bump into her and talk. I doubt my first questions would be about the gruesome details of how my family was killed, in fact I would want spared the details, at least until I digested the deaths. Morse knew 1. Emma wasn't home 2. Mr. and Mrs. Borden were dead....who else WOULD he call out to??? I agree with you on the point of remembering all those freaking details though...seems suspicious.

I mentioned this before, months ago...I LIKE your analytical mind. You so remind me of Nancy Drew. I'll admit it- as a young boy I read Hardy Boys AND Nancy Drew books I collect them to this day, have first editions!

NancyDrew wrote:
This is only my opinion, but it strikes me as odd that he did not ask HOW they were killed. That would be the first thing I would want to know. (Franz I'm stealing from your post here, I"m sure you won't mind.) If I happened upon a relative's house and was told that people I loved and had JUST seen had been killed, the first thing I would ask is either: "What happened?" or (more likely) "How?"

I certainly don't mind at all. And I am sure that I am not the first to question Morse's behaviour in that way. On the other hand, I think that he should have worried for Lizzie's safety immediately - she was his niece, in any way. He was informed only that Mr. and Mrs. Borden were murdered, but he asked nothing.

PossumPie:

I don't know what was going on with John Morse, only that certain things don't add up, and every time I sift through the case files, he sticks out. Over and over again.

He was sitting up with the Bordens, talking, on Wednesday night, the night before the murders. I'm actually surprised they were sitting up, seeing as they (Abby and Andrew) had been barfing their guts out the previous 24 hours. But Victorian manners precluded personal comfort, and so they sat, in the dark, that perfectly still summer night, chatting casually. Lizzie was out visiting her friend and acting as if she had psychic powers...a little too coincidental for my liking. How convenient that she told Alice Russell that she felt as if something bad might happen...the mighty mind of Lizzie Borden; Fall River's own Miss Cleo!

Lizzie came in around 9:00...and according to her statement, went straight to her room. Did she hear them talking? She didn't admit to it:

Q. When you came back at nine o'clock, you did not look in to see if the family were up?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I very rarely do when I come in.

What an odd thing to say. "I very rarely do when I come in." Ok, so she wasn't in the habit of saying goodnight. But I don't believe for a minute she didn't know that they were still up. She didn't talk to Uncle John. Didn't pop in an say hi. But I think she heard them talking. Why? Because she admitted she knew of his presence earlier in her inquest testimony:

Q. When did he come to the house the last time before your father and mother were killed?
A He stayed there all night Wednesday night.
Q. My question is when he came there.
A. I don't know. I was not home when he came. I was out.
Q. When did you first see him there?
A. I did not see him at all.
Q. How did you know he was there?
A. I heard his voice.



She HEARD HIS VOICE. She knew they were still up.

She avoided contact with Uncle John again, the next morning:


Q. When you got up the next morning, did you see Mr. Morse?
A. I did not.
Q. Had the family breakfasted when you came down?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What time did you come downstairs?
A As near as I can remember, it was a few minutes before nine.
Q. Who did you find downstairs when you came down?
A. Maggie and Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you inquire for Mr. Morse?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suppose he had gone?
A. I did not know whether he had or not. He was not there.

Geez Louse, Lizzie, you are sure going out of your way NOT to see good ole Uncle John, everyone's favorite house guest. What is up with her behavior? I can understand her not seeing him when he arrived. But not at breakfast? Not at night, when she came in? Lizzie had at least 3 opportunities to ACKNOWLEDGE his presence, but she didn't. She knew he was there. She heard his voice. But she didn't speak to him, didn't inquire after him, didn't even wish him a good evening.

Not one speck of conversation or eye contact between niece and uncle. And yet....he comes home, finds out his hosts are dead, and who is the FIRST person he thinks of? LIZZIE?

To my mind, this is just weird.

PossumPie: Almost forgot: thank you for the compliment! I enjoy talking to you too! I worshipped Nancy Drew when I was a girl...still have all the original books. My daughter, 25 years old, and a Brown University grad, still reads them when she cozies up with a cup of tea and a blanket on a rainy day. (Ok, ok, I do it too... )

NancyDrew wrote:PossumPie: Almost forgot: thank you for the compliment! I enjoy talking to you too! I worshipped Nancy Drew when I was a girl...still have all the original books. My daughter, 25 years old, and a Brown University grad, still reads them when she cozies up with a cup of tea and a blanket on a rainy day. (Ok, ok, I do it too... )

I still read my copies of Hardy Boy and Nancy Drew books also...I'm 48 years old! I love the old fashioned way kids were polite to parents, had good clean fun, and solved mysteries.

I'm close to your age, and I read the Hardy Boys too. And Trixie Belden, Donna Parker, and anything else I could get my hands on. My childhood was a very unhappy one; books saved my life...I spent every minute I could with a nose buried in one of them.

The only thing about Nancy Drew that I find a bit odd...looking back on it, she sure took a lot of chances with her health! She was frequently getting bonked on the head to the point of unconsciousness, with no medical follow up to see if she had a concusssion. Ditto for having handkerchiefs soaked in ETHER clamped over her face, to render her limp...no ill effects of those either.

Harriett Adams was the original author of the Nancy Drew series (under the name Carolyn Keene.) The original books contained racial slurs ("darkies" was one of them) that the publisher got nervous about and had removed and reprinted in the 1960's. I have about a dozen of the original ones; the rest are the cleaned-up versions.

My father was an English teacher. Once a week, he would take my brother and I to a store that sold books and I would spend my allowance on a Nancy Drew book. They were .79 each in the 1960's, then went up to $1.29 in the '70's.

Okay, PossumPie, without peeking, what was the name of her two best friends, and her boyfriend?

NancyDrew wrote:PossumPie:

I don't know what was going on with John Morse, only that certain things don't add up, and every time I sift through the case files, he sticks out. Over and over again.

He was sitting up with the Bordens, talking, on Wednesday night, the night before the murders. I'm actually surprised they were sitting up, seeing as they (Abby and Andrew) had been barfing their guts out the previous 24 hours. But Victorian manners precluded personal comfort, and so they sat, in the dark, that perfectly still summer night, chatting casually. Lizzie was out visiting her friend and acting as if she had psychic powers...a little too coincidental for my liking. How convenient that she told Alice Russell that she felt as if something bad might happen...the mighty mind of Lizzie Borden; Fall River's own Miss Cleo!

Lizzie came in around 9:00...and according to her statement, went straight to her room. Did she hear them talking? She didn't admit to it:

Q. When you came back at nine o'clock, you did not look in to see if the family were up?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I very rarely do when I come in.

What an odd thing to say. "I very rarely do when I come in." Ok, so she wasn't in the habit of saying goodnight. But I don't believe for a minute she didn't know that they were still up. She didn't talk to Uncle John. Didn't pop in an say hi. But I think she heard them talking. Why? Because she admitted she knew of his presence earlier in her inquest testimony:

Q. When did he come to the house the last time before your father and mother were killed?
A He stayed there all night Wednesday night.
Q. My question is when he came there.
A. I don't know. I was not home when he came. I was out.
Q. When did you first see him there?
A. I did not see him at all.
Q. How did you know he was there?
A. I heard his voice.



She HEARD HIS VOICE. She knew they were still up.

She avoided contact with Uncle John again, the next morning:


Q. When you got up the next morning, did you see Mr. Morse?
A. I did not.
Q. Had the family breakfasted when you came down?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What time did you come downstairs?
A As near as I can remember, it was a few minutes before nine.
Q. Who did you find downstairs when you came down?
A. Maggie and Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you inquire for Mr. Morse?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suppose he had gone?
A. I did not know whether he had or not. He was not there.

Geez Louse, Lizzie, you are sure going out of your way NOT to see good ole Uncle John, everyone's favorite house guest. What is up with her behavior? I can understand her not seeing him when he arrived. But not at breakfast? Not at night, when she came in? Lizzie had at least 3 opportunities to ACKNOWLEDGE his presence, but she didn't. She knew he was there. She heard his voice. But she didn't speak to him, didn't inquire after him, didn't even wish him a good evening.

Not one speck of conversation or eye contact between niece and uncle. And yet....he comes home, finds out his hosts are dead, and who is the FIRST person he thinks of? LIZZIE?

To my mind, this is just weird.

It does seem odd to say the least. Morse testified that he didn't remember ever having received a letter from Lizzie, all the correspondence was with Emma and Andrew. It could be that Lizzie contributed, in part, to the writing of those letters from time to time, but never took the initiative to send her uncle a letter herself. I have no proof, but one possibility is that Lizzie, who was concerned with social status and acceptance by the upper echelons of Fall River, had this uncle who was essentially a farmer. The possibility exists that Lizzie was embarrassed by Morse.