Lizzie Borden Society Forum

These are photographs that I took during my first overnight visit to the house. I've stayed there twice, both times in the guestroom. I also have video that I shot of the entire house. Except the basement because mysteriously the footage did not show up. Many of the photographs also turned out very dark. I am not sure why because all of my photographs were taken in the daytime and I had a flash, which also refused to work in the basement. I'm not saying anything paranormal was going on. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. I just know my flash didn't work and my photographs came out dark. So I apologize for the poor quality. Many of the photographs in the basement are too dark to make out much. Some areas I didn't photograph because I mainly took video footage. I booked the guestroom for a third stay but never made it due to car trouble. I do hope to make another trip to the house this spring if things work out the way I hope. Keeping my fingers crossed. I am sharing them because I think it sometimes brings things a little more into focus if you can actually see the areas you are talking about that are involved in the case. Being able to visualize things really helps.

Again sorry these are dark.

These are of the second floor.

The basement.

Pretty cool, especially the basement. When I took the tour they didn't take us there. Only found one video of it online, and it showed very little.

Thanks for the photographs, Allen!

When was the house destroyed in a fire? Are there any parts that are original; still standing, or was the entire hoe rebuilt?

To be honest I don't remember there being a fire at the house. I know there were a few fires in Fall River that burned parts of the town almost to cinders, but I don't remember a fire being at the Borden house. But you did get me thinking maybe I'd missed something. I actually called Michael Martins at the Fall River historical society to check it out before I answered you. He said to his knowledge there was never a fire at the house. He is so nice by the way. Just such a nice man, and so patient. This is not the first time I've called to bother him with a question and he takes the time to answer me to the best of his knowledge.

Really? Well my husband daughter and I all went to the Borden house and we were told it was NOT the original house, but that it had been rebuilt to resemble it. Now you've got my curiosity up.

I want to know, and i"m going to find out. Back to you later...

This has really got me peeved. I paid money for the tour and was told misinformation?

As near as I can tell, the most probable fire was the great fire of 1928 in Fall River; it swept through downtown and destroyed a dozen buildings. I can't tell if the Borden house was one of them, as the only buildings listed where those of commercial value, and at the time the Borden house was just a residence. Fall River was still trying to cover up the murders, rather than profit from them.

I have watched so many videos and read so much stuff that its all jumbled in my brain, but I could swear I saw something on youtube about a fire in the mid 1970's that ravaged the upper floor of the house, not the lower.

If anyone has taken a recent tour there, and was told the same information, please come forward, thanks!

Thank you for the photos. I would like to know if the bed in the guest room is original.

Allen, thank you for posting the pictures of the house. I haven’t been to the house, so these pictures do give me a better understanding of it’s layout.

Franz wrote:Thank you for the photos. I would like to know if the bed in the guest room is original.

The bed is not original but I was told the reproduction closely resembles the original.

Allen,

I'm tearing my hair out over the fire that never was. I have an excellent memory, and would swear on a stack of Bibles, that the last time I toured the hose (about 2 years ago) the woman doing the tour told us that the house wasn't the original, and that the original burned in a fire. There was even a mish-mash of old broken plates, bits of glass, etc that was supposedly "save from the fire" and did originally belong to the Bordens..it was in a display case.

Mike Martins not knowing about a fire...I mean, how can I refute that..he's the head of the Fall River Historical society...he should know of all people. I don't like that i was given false information...to the tune of $45 for a 45 minute tour (3 of us.). I'm going to take this to higher ground...the fire department. As soon as I can, I'm going to visit there...my husband is a former fire fighter and they all stick together for life, so I think I'll bring him for support. Fall River is 30 miles from my house. I probably wont' be able to do this until after the holidays. I'm going to also visit a couple of diners I know in the area where old-timers hang out...find out what the town gossip is. Surely the residents of Fall River would know if the Borden house caught on fire at some point. And like I said, I'm absolutely, 100% POSITIVE that is what the tour guide told us...not once but several times. She made a point of making sure we knew that...the house had been set up to look just like it did when Lizzie lived there, but it was not the original. I've heard people say the original blood stain is still on the floor in the guest room where Abby lay slain, but this is not true either.

We were not allowed to go into the basement on our tour...I wonder why?

Franz:

Thought you would enjoy a quick story from my family archives When I was in high school, (1976-1980) my mother's sister (my favorite aunt) went to an estate auction, and I remember her coming back with an antique bed. She said it had belonged to Lizzie Borden. I think it was from Maplecroft...she had money and would often buy weird stuff like that.

I wish I knew what happened to it. She's elderly now and her memory is failing. Got rid of all the furniture she had in that house and downgraded to wicker (moved to southern Florida.)

Allen wrote:

Franz wrote:Thank you for the photos. I would like to know if the bed in the guest room is original.

The bed is not original but I was told the reproduction closely resembles the original.

Thank you Allen.

So, 1) I hardly believe that Abby had wanted to escape by trying to hide herself under the bed. 2) If you haven't the intention to see a body through the space under the bed, I am pretty sure that you would most probably miss it.

NancyDrew wrote:Franz:

Thought you would enjoy a quick story from my family archives When I was in high school, (1976-1980) my mother's sister (my favorite aunt) went to an estate auction, and I remember her coming back with an antique bed. She said it had belonged to Lizzie Borden. I think it was from Maplecroft...she had money and would often buy weird stuff like that.

I wish I knew what happened to it. She's elderly now and her memory is failing. Got rid of all the furniture she had in that house and downgraded to wicker (moved to southern Florida.)

Thank you for sharing this interesting story. Why not have talk with your aunt to be sure what is about that bed now... It would be funny.

Question for Allen.. You are slender-- could you have gotten under that bed at all?

Aamartin wrote:Question for Allen.. You are slender-- could you have gotten under that bed at all?

I thought everyone accepted that after the first one or two whacks, Mrs. Borden was unconscious/dead, NOT trying to crawl under the bed. Mrs. Borden's body was moved around quite a bit before that photo was snapped. We had a whole discussion on the testimony of her position and what it meant. I don't buy Franz's idea that she was down on hands-and-knees trying to find a "watch" I think she was standing, was hit- WHAM- and dropped right on the spot, dead. I've seen her skull, there was no crawling around after those blows! Since there was no scream, It seems that at the last moment, she turned to see her attacker, the attacker hit her a glancing blow on the face, then followed quickly with a skull crushing blow that rendered her dead or unconscious. There was no sign of struggle, no defensive wounds, no calling out or screams, and no reason to think that she had the ability to try to crawl under the bed.

I believe the broken pieces of dishes, pottery and such were dug up from what was the privy area of the original barn when it was taken down. I found the tour guides not to always be so accurate with their facts. I had one insist to me that Lizzy's trip to Europe was paid for my her biological mother's inheritance. When I strongly questioned that....the guide stuck fast to her version.

Love the pictures!!! The OCD in me has ALWAYS screamed..."Why is the sitting room sofa off center???" The door opened INTO the kitchen, so there was no door that needed room to open! Seriously, that sofa would drive me insane!!

I have never been to Fall River, so I agree having the pictures posted by Allen makes a lot of difference. The main impression I get, which was probably true of the rooms in many Victorian homes, is --- squashed and dark! I'm no fan of the clunkiness of much Victorian furniture, which probably made it worse. No passageways and five people living there, two of whom didn't like a third member at all! Nightmare!

SallyG wrote:Love the pictures!!! The OCD in me has ALWAYS screamed..."Why is the sitting room sofa off center???" The door opened INTO the kitchen, so there was no door that needed room to open! Seriously, that sofa would drive me insane!!

I always thought the sofa was off center, actually pushed into the doorway, to give more room to enter the room from the other door to the kitchen. It was a tight fit. Or perhaps Lizzie pushed it there so she could reach around the corner easier and whack, whack, whack!

It would help a great deal if we knew more about Andrew's daily routine. We know he was elderly and just about retired but was it his habit to have a snooze on the sitting room sofa before the midday meal? The sofa is so short that, as has often been pointed out, it was hardly comfortable. Much better to have slipped his shoes off in his room and gone to slumberland there! If, on the other hand, he made a habit of snoozing on the couch it made it much easier for Lizzie in spite of the risk of Uncle John returning early and rattling at the side-door.

Curryong wrote:It would help a great deal if we knew more about Andrew's daily routine. We know he was elderly and just about retired but was it his habit to have a snooze on the sitting room sofa before the midday meal? The sofa is so short that, as has often been pointed out, it was hardly comfortable. Much better to have slipped his shoes off in his room and gone to slumberland there! If, on the other hand, he made a habit of snoozing on the couch it made it much easier for Lizzie in spite of the risk of Uncle John returning early and rattling at the side-door.

You make a good point in your last sentence. The risk to Lizzie would be Uncle John returning early, or anyone walking in BUT think about the alternative. If it were NOT Lizzie, the risk would be the killer/stranger standing right in the downstairs, not knowing if Bridget or Lizzie would walk in, not knowing if the first blow would cause Andrew to BELLOW OUT in pain, bringing Lizzie and Bridget running. A stranger could NOT have known the location of either of them, if they just spent an hour and a half with Abby's body upstairs. Lizzie had just spent some moments talking to Andrew. She was literally right beside him, yet the complete stranger carrying an ax sneaked down into the wide open hall with no worry that anyone in the house would see him? We theorize about a stranger like it would be no risk at all to come out of hiding upstairs, casually stroll downstairs, know exactly where the whole family was, know where Andrew was, go right to him without passing anyone else, kill him silently, and leave in broad daylight. Fiction/movie writers can conveniently have people NOT walk in on a murder, but in real life, how did he/she know they would be alone?

Incidentally, with regard to the positioning of the sofa, I have just found a 'Moving the Sofa' thread in the archives from May 2004, where there is an interesting discussion with regard to this and the photographs that were taken of the spot in 1892

Well, Curryong, don't be a tease. Link?

If we're rearranging furniture, I'd have put that sofa over on the window side, for better fung shui and reading light.

Mara wrote:Well, Curryong, don't be a tease. Link?

If we're rearranging furniture, I'd have put that sofa over on the window side, for better fung shui and reading light.

So would I...maybe a chair and table where the sofa was.

We have to remember that Andrew was tall, so most sofas of the time wouldn't have accommodated his frame. Also, he had been very sick; violently wretching just the night before; I'm actually pretty impressed that a sick, and probably nauseous man of 70 went for such a long walk; but then again, we old Yankees are of a tough stock.

It is very possible he was in the habit of a pre-lunch catnap; also if Uncle John came home early, what do you think Lizzie would have done? She could could have run at him with an ax, but he was an old farm guy; probably very strong, and able to catch her arm, don't you think?

I don't think Lizzie would have tackled Uncle John, who would have had to have been let in anyway as the side door was locked. He had no key. I suppose if he then went round to the front door and knocked as Andrew had done, she might very well have ignored it, skipped upstairs, cleaned herself of any blood spatter very quickly in her room and then come downstairs looking sleepy-eyed and pretending she had been asleep in her room. It would have been about the only thing she could do. In those circumstances she could hardly claim that she had been out or downstairs!
Perhaps Andrew was in the habit of snoozing on the couch. It would have been quite uncomfortable for his neck and back, though.

Curryong wrote:I don't think Lizzie would have tackled Uncle John, who would have had to have been let in anyway as the side door was locked. He had no key. I suppose if he then went round to the front door and knocked as Andrew had done, she might very well have ignored it, skipped upstairs, cleaned herself of any blood spatter very quickly in her room and then come downstairs looking sleepy-eyed and pretending she had been asleep in her room. It would have been about the only thing she could do. In those circumstances she could hardly claim that she had been out or downstairs!
Perhaps Andrew was in the habit of snoozing on the couch. It would have been quite uncomfortable for his neck and back, though.

Curryong you emphasize a point I've always had in mind when people say "How could Lizzie know when Uncle John would come back?" The front door was locked. Even Andrew could not get in. The side door was hooked shut. No one was getting into that house without being let in. It seems to have been John Morse's habit to use the side door anyway. He left from the side door, and returned to the side door. If Uncle John had knocked the story might have went something like this, "OH Uncle John, hurry and come in, someone has killed father."

Unless he thought to himself 'Oh well, no-one home. I'll just sit under the trees and have a pear or two!'

FactFinder wrote:

Curryong wrote:I don't think Lizzie would have tackled Uncle John, who would have had to have been let in anyway as the side door was locked. He had no key. I suppose if he then went round to the front door and knocked as Andrew had done, she might very well have ignored it, skipped upstairs, cleaned herself of any blood spatter very quickly in her room and then come downstairs looking sleepy-eyed and pretending she had been asleep in her room. It would have been about the only thing she could do. In those circumstances she could hardly claim that she had been out or downstairs!
Perhaps Andrew was in the habit of snoozing on the couch. It would have been quite uncomfortable for his neck and back, though.

Curryong you emphasize a point I've always had in mind when people say "How could Lizzie know when Uncle John would come back?" The front door was locked. Even Andrew could not get in. The side door was hooked shut. No one was getting into that house without being let in. It seems to have been John Morse's habit to use the side door anyway. He left from the side door, and returned to the side door. If Uncle John had knocked the story might have went something like this, "OH Uncle John, hurry and come in, someone has killed father."

lizzie may have overheard her father telling uncle john to come back for dinner, which i understand was usually served around noon. while she couldn't have known if he'd return early or not, she'd have probably thought she was safe until around 11:30. i agree he would have come to the side door.

i too have wondered why that sofa was pushed so off-center, when the door leading to the kitchen opens into the kitchen.

I used to live in an old house that had a kitchen door on a hinge that swung both ways; very convenient for serving and clearing with full arms. Are we sure the Borden's kitchen door was just a plain old door that swung into the kitchen and not into the sitting room?

Anyway, re the awkward position of the sofa: I always thought the bare space to its right allowed for the kitchen door to swing into the room there. If that wasn't the case, I wonder if there may have been something else to its right that had been removed when the photos were taken. A small table, perhaps?

the house i grew up in had a kitchen door like that. it was very handy.

i read a post within the past week on the thread discussing the weird positioning of the sofa that said the kitchen door swung into the kitchen, so i assumed that was the case. i'll try to find it.

SallyG wrote:Love the pictures!!! The OCD in me has ALWAYS screamed..."Why is the sitting room sofa off center???" The door opened INTO the kitchen, so there was no door that needed room to open! Seriously, that sofa would drive me insane!!

*cough* it was in this thread! i've read too many threads in too short a period of time

Does the sofa have castors? Perhaps they were moving it around for the photographs to be taken?

Two quick queries (A) is it set in stone that Andrew's killer came around the door that always features in the photographs of Andrew's body.
(B) In the 'Blueprints of the House' thread there is a closet in the dining room to the right of that door. Do you think a cleaned-up hatchet could have reposed there waiting between the murders? Lizzie seemed to be mighty anxious to be fussing around in the dining room setting up her ironing board etc. It's been speculated that she was keeping an eye on Bridget, trying to get her to go out. Could she also have been keeping an eye on her hidden weapon as well?

she could have hidden the hatchet in that closet. she had to have it somewhere out of plain view in the dining room.

i'm not sure anything to do with this is set in stone! or very little :). but it does seem most likely that's what happened, because of andrew's napping, that the left side of his face is what took the beating (which to me says he really was half reclined and probably napping), and coming out of that door would give the killer the most coverage and ability to watch and then surprise andrew with the attack. last thing the killer wanted was for andrew to make any sounds.

Allen!

Thank you for the pictures! It does help to see things- I've tried to draw a layout based on the sketches I've seen but mine are horrible! Anyway, I have a question about Andrew so I'll go find his thread.

It would be interesting to know if the house there is the original or rebuilt.

It's the original house 'MysteryReader' and I think the owners have done a wonderful job, inside and out. Incidentally, look on Page 2 of the threads halfway down, and you will see under 'Blueprints of the House' accurate plans of the Borden house as in 1892.
They are very handy and useful.

Thanks! I've been slowly working my way through the posts! :-D

FactFinder wrote:

Curryong wrote:I don't think Lizzie would have tackled Uncle John, who would have had to have been let in anyway as the side door was locked. He had no key. I suppose if he then went round to the front door and knocked as Andrew had done, she might very well have ignored it, skipped upstairs, cleaned herself of any blood spatter very quickly in her room and then come downstairs looking sleepy-eyed and pretending she had been asleep in her room. It would have been about the only thing she could do. In those circumstances she could hardly claim that she had been out or downstairs!
Perhaps Andrew was in the habit of snoozing on the couch. It would have been quite uncomfortable for his neck and back, though.

Curryong you emphasize a point I've always had in mind when people say "How could Lizzie know when Uncle John would come back?" The front door was locked. Even Andrew could not get in. The side door was hooked shut. No one was getting into that house without being let in. It seems to have been John Morse's habit to use the side door anyway. He left from the side door, and returned to the side door. If Uncle John had knocked the story might have went something like this, "OH Uncle John, hurry and come in, someone has killed father."

I think FactFinder ignored here the possibility that Uncle John could have returned even earlier than Andrew. In this case, with Abby's body lying in the guest room, Morse being at the side door --- and maybe Bridget was still washing windows outside --- what to do for Lizzie?

I do wonder what would have happened if Uncle John had returned earlier than Andrew. Interesting.

Yes, in thar case she would have been in a real pickle. Still, better to have one alibi than two. She could have told both men, I suppose, (once she'd unlocked the doors anklet them in) that she had been quietly snoozing in her room, not feeling well, and had not seen or heard anything!

Curryong wrote:Yes, in thar case she would have been in a real pickle. Still, better to have one alibi than two. She could have told both men, I suppose, (once she'd unlocked the doors anklet them in) that she had been quietly snoozing in her room, not feeling well, and had not seen or heard anything!

So Andrew would have survived? Good Heaven! And then, what would have happened? Would Andrew have suspected Lizzie? Many members believe Lizzie killed Andrew as well because she was afraid that father would suspect her, dont' they? So, with zero contact with Morse, totally ignoring when Morse would return home (who knows, Andrew had his routine, but Morse could retunr in any moment, no one could foresee what would happen to him), Lizzie decided to kill as well? I hardly believe.

No Franz, I don't think, put in that predicament, that Lizzie would have killed Andrew, primarily because no-one, least of all the police, would have believed a second scenario of a mad intruder.

Her plans, if it had happened that way (Morse coming home earlier than Andrew) would have been in ruins. Her best bet would, of course, play the mad intruder/enemy of Andrew line with regard to Abby's death.

I happen to think that Andrew would have suspected her. I don't think he would have given her up to the police, but, horrified at what she had done,he would have made sure she was tucked away in a private asylum, where she could do no more harm.

Curryong wrote:No Franz, I don't think, put in that predicament, that Lizzie would have killed Andrew, primarily because no-one, least of all the police, would have believed a second scenario of a mad intruder.

Her plans, if it had happened that way (Morse coming home earlier than Andrew) would have been in ruins. Her best bet would, of course, play the mad intruder/enemy of Andrew line with regard to Abby's death.

I happen to think that Andrew would have suspected her. I don't think he would have given her up to the police, but, horrified at what she had done,he would have made sure she was tucked away in a private asylum, where she could do no more harm.

So, with the risk that Uncle John might return in any moment, do you think Lizzie would have decided to kill as well that day, running the risk that her plans "would have been in ruins"?. Why couldn't Lizzie wait only one day, or maybe two? why didn't she decide to kill after Morse would have already left? Emma's return was not immediate, so Lizzie would have had no difficulty to find another occasion to kill, without running the risk that her plan was ruined by Morse.

Well, you see, I am not convinced that Lizzie knew that her father had invited John back for the midday meal. Lizzie was downstairs that morning at nine am and went to the kitchen. By that time John was on his way down town. Her father followed him out soon afterwards. We don't know whether Andrew informed her about John. Why should he?

For all Lizzie knew, the coast was clear all the way to about 11:30 am when Bridget was due downstairs to make up the kitchen fire and prepare the soup. In fact, luck was on Lizzie's side, as her father, feeling queasy and sleepy, laid down on the couch at just before eleven. Perfect opportunity. No need to wait!

If however, John had met up with Andrew down town and the two men had decided to walk home together, or if John had decided to leave his sick niece's house earlier and arrived at the Borden house just before or just after Andrew, there wouldn't have been any opportunity to finish Andrew off. He would be sitting talking to John and wondering where Abby was.

Franz wrote:

Curryong wrote:No Franz, I don't think, put in that predicament, that Lizzie would have killed Andrew, primarily because no-one, least of all the police, would have believed a second scenario of a mad intruder.

Her plans, if it had happened that way (Morse coming home earlier than Andrew) would have been in ruins. Her best bet would, of course, play the mad intruder/enemy of Andrew line with regard to Abby's death.

I happen to think that Andrew would have suspected her. I don't think he would have given her up to the police, but, horrified at what she had done,he would have made sure she was tucked away in a private asylum, where she could do no more harm.

So, with the risk that Uncle John might return in any moment, do you think Lizzie would have decided to kill as well that day, running the risk that her plans "would have been in ruins"?. Why couldn't Lizzie wait only one day, or maybe two? why didn't she decide to kill after Morse would have already left? Emma's return was not immediate, so Lizzie would have had no difficulty to find another occasion to kill, without running the risk that her plan was ruined by Morse.

NONE of this matters...We know for a FACT that no matter who was the killer, they did it quickly. Bridget went upstairs, 10 min. later Andrew was dead. Even if Uncle Morse said "I'm going out to buy tobacco and will be back in 15 min. the killer-whoever it was- could have accomplished it. The idea that if it was Lizzie she wouldn't want to risk Morse returning is a non-issue. Fact is the killer indeed did kill, clean up, and get rid of the weapon all in under 15 min.

Yes Possum, we're just exploring some hypothetical scenarios, highways and byways, on what is here a cool autumn evening. By the way, I shall be waiting for the other half of you-know-who soon!