Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I am very interested in hearing everyone’s views and opinions of the relationship between Emma and Abby.

There is little verifiable information about their interactions and the relationship they shared. Emma’s testimony paints a picture of an acrimonious relationship between the two and as far as I can interpret, leads us to believe that she instigated this lack of cordiality.

I have tried to imagine how Emma must have felt when Andrew brought Abby into the home and their lives. She had been taking care of Lizzie and probably had a large part in running the household. Was there a servant prior to Abby’s arrival? Did Emma take most of the household responsibility for those two years? Girls of that era grew up a bit faster than they do nowadays and Emma may very well have assumed many of the household chores and decisions about meals, housework and other things.

Several things strike me about Emma. First and foremost was her lack of any real identity. She did not participate in Church; she was not in clubs and social activities. Her “best friend” was another unmarried woman who lived nearby. We are led to believe that her trip at the time of the murders was very unusual, that she usually remained home most of the time and kept to herself.

What consumed her time? Did she while away her days smoldering with anger and resentment? Did she, as the major female/maternal influence in Lizzie’s life manipulate her into hating Abby? Lizzie referred to Abby as a “mean old thing” yet we have absolutely no documentation, testimony or even hearsay about any incidents where Abby was unkind or cruel to anyone. She was, in fact, well regarded.

Did Abby, who loved her half sister so, come into the family happily and excited to have two stepdaughters to love? Did she shower Lizzie with affection? Did Emma see this and become angry and jealous of Abby’s “stealing” Lizzie from her? Years later, did she use the property transfer debacle as a means to manipulate Lizzie into hating Abby? Remember, Andrew’s near obsession with the acquisition of property and wealth may have been the example Emma and Lizzie needed to see such acquisition as a barometer of personal success and happiness. Did his purchase and transfer of property to Abby somehow indicate to the girls that he regarded her more than he did them? It is interesting that Abby did not wish for the property for personal gain. She wanted to protect the sister she loved. Did Abby charge her sister a rent? This seems to be the only thing Abby ever asked of Andrew. Regardless of the circumstances, Andrew’s investment in Abby paid him as well as any of the financial deals he every entered into! She seems to have kept an immaculate home and oversaw Andrew’s comfort and asked for very little in return.

Another thing that comes to mind when I think of Emma is the very high credibility she enjoyed. She was treated well and never reviled in the papers or by rumor (that we know of) and her defection of Maplecroft only caused more gossip and blame placed on Lizzie’s shoulders. If Emma left then she must have had good reason. Lizzie must be a lesbian, or she must be having wild parties, etc.

Why? What did Emma ever do (apart from being away at the time of the murders) to afford her such courtesy and credibility? She did a fantastic job on the stand and her testimony had to have played a great part in the reasonable doubt that acquitted Lizzie. Granted, they lacked proof of a murder weapon and the chain of evidence for the alleged weapon produced by the prosecution was compromised and suspect. Emma had to have lied on the stand about doing dishes when she saw Lizzie burn the dress. Why was this not questioned by prosecutors? They had to have been in the house. Did they not notice the lack of a sink in the kitchen? Emma made it sound as though she practically begged Lizzie to rid the clothes press of the paint stained dress. She takes the fall for being the one with the bad relationship with Abby. No one questioned her nor did they revile her in print, ever.

Why?

Had Emma gone public and stated she believed Lizzie was guilty—do you think she would have been convicted—lack of evidence and all?

Emma did state in the uncharacteristic interview she gave years later that she believed wholeheartedly in Lizzie’s innocence. She remained loyal if not loving.

Could she have felt guilty for encouraging Lizzie’s hate of Abby?

Was the murder (if Lizzie did it) more about hate than it was greed? Was the murder a byproduct of the hate? Did Emma urge and encourage Lizzie’s hate of Abby with fatal results? Did she think “what have I done?” Did the fact that Lizzie did not turn to her after her acquittal cause the eventual discord that caused them to be estranged?

Emma intrigues me.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you, Aamartin, that Emma is someone whose persona is quite elusive. We know little about her apart from her loyalty to Lizzie and her testimony for the defence in court. I think she held the same sort of loyalty towards her dead mother and held herself apart from the first from any overtures of love and friendship from her new stepmother. This of course influenced young Lizzie as she grew up.

These feelings were exacerbated by Andrew's purchase of the half-house for Abby's sister. Both sisters seemed to have deeply resented any financial settlement that didn't involve them. Wasn't it Emma who was supposed to have told her father that what he did for his sister-in-law he should be prepared to 'do for his own blood'. I think she absolutely fanned the flames of dislike for Abby, all the more so after that incident.

Emma's very reserved shell probably assisted in there being little criticism of her during the trial and afterwards. She was seen as the rather colourless older spinster sister loyally doing everything she could to help her sibling. Very little to criticise there. In fact, her testimony in court shows evidence of a clear and concise mind.

I've often wondered if there was a 'still waters run deep' quality about Emma. Had Emma 'turned' and pronounced her sister guilty I do think it would have caused a sensation and perhaps created some doubt in the minds of the jurors. However, there would still have been the lack of concrete evidence to link Lizzie to the crime.

Had Emma done that and Lizzie still been acquitted I think it would have increased Lizzie's social isolation even further. "Her only sister thinks her guilty...!" that sort of thinking. By the way, I don't believe Emma ever gave an interview. I think it would have been anathema for her to have discussed private family affairs with a newspaper person.

it's nice to see you posting again, aamartin :)

Did his purchase and transfer of property to Abby somehow indicate to the girls that he regarded her more than he did them? It is interesting that Abby did not wish for the property for personal gain. She wanted to protect the sister she loved. Did Abby charge her sister a rent? This seems to be the only thing Abby ever asked of Andrew.

i think the girls viewed abby as an outsider, an intruder. andrew, lizzie, and emma were all tied by blood; abby wasn't. so yes, i do think the girls viewed andrew's giving abby that property for her half-sister was resented for that reason. he hadn't, until that point, given them any property. why should he give this outsider property, and not his own blood, his own daughters? i think that's how they viewed it.

as far as i know, abby didn't gain anything. charged no rent, just wanted to make sure her half-sister and husband still had a home to live in. i can't think of anything else abby asked of andrew either. she appears to have been a very undemanding wife, and person.

when andrew married abby, i believe lizzie was around 5 and emma around 15. so emma was, in the times, a young woman, or just entering young womanhood. i remember reading somewhere that abby did try, that she gave lizzie a silver cup with her name engraved on it.

maybe when she came into the family, she found herself facing a resentful teenaged emma, and soon realized there was no winning her over, however much she tried. but lizzie was young enough to win over with kindness. we know that up until the time lizzie was 27, she called abby mother. i've never heard that emma ever called her mother. i wonder if andrew tried to force her to, or asked her to, when abby first came into the family, and she refused.

it must have chaffed emma every time she heard lizzie call abby mother. now that i think of it, lizzie's 'she NOT my mother' sounds like she was repeating what she'd heard emma say, probably many times up until that point.

i think one reason emma was regarded the way she was is because her behavior and personality is what was accepted and approved of at the time. straight-laced, upright, tight-lipped, uncomplaining of her lot in life (except when it came to abby). a very new englander type of woman of the period. like her father. while lizzie was more of a free spirit, a wild child.

i wonder if emma ostracized too? to the same degree as lizzie?

i'd thought emma did go to church. didn't she? there was her apparently close relationship with reverend buck and his family. she lived with people all of her life, so i don't see her as unsocial.

Quick answers on the fly.

Emma may have been regarded so well by society because she was exactly what "respectable" women were supposed to be in those days: invisible. She did was was required of her and kept her composure under extraordinary circumstances. Not only was that valued in general in those days, but it was especially valued in New England. Stoic Yankees, and all that. ;)

I believe "mean" was used in Victorian times as a synonym for tightfisted or stingy. My mother used it that way. Her mother used "dear" to mean precious, but more in the sense of "expensive," as in "Oh that's pretty, but it's much too dear."

I doubt that many second wives of widowers with children expected to be entering their new families with visions of loving children and gumdrops falling from the sky. While there may have been affection between Abby and Andrew, I'm pretty sure Abby knew she was in for a tough exchange of spinsterhood for security.

I think I read somewhere that, before the murders, Lizzie was an active Church-goer, very much involved in various activities connected to it, while Emma wasn't, though I suppose the whole family were regular churchgoers. Then, after she was 'cut,' Lizzie dropped all her activities and rarely attended Church while Emma became very close to the Rev. Buck and his family.
Both sisters remained in their local Temperance Union organisation, however, because I remember Kat posting a small cutting from the local newspaper recording their attendance at some evening function in the late 1890's.
I do wonder whether perhaps, under the influence (pun intended,) of the theatricals, Lizzie broke the Pledge and had a glass of sherry or something on one occasion. That would have been enough, if Emma observed it, to have set her scuttling off to consult with Reverend Buck.

I didn't know where to post this, but it's got tit-bits about Emma and the barn ect...

http://phayemuss.wordpress.com/category ... ly/page/2/

Scrolling further down the above link are photos of the Swansea 'upper' and 'lower' farms where the Borden family summered, and Lizzie and Andrew fished. After the trial Emma and Lizzie continued to visit them. As the caption on one of the photos suggests, any idea of Andrew's of leaving either farm to his wife may have engendered deep resentment in the sisters' minds.

Looking up at Aa's first post again, I'm struck once more about how little we know about Emma. Did she have pets? Not as far as anyone knows. Did she go out to art or music or bible classes, or to sewing bees? Not so far as is known. At Swansea did she ever join her sister and father in their fishing expeditions?

Did she ever have a serious sweetheart, go dancing? Again, not known! She helped with the housework at the Borden Second St house and no doubt played the role of housekeeper at Maplecroft. We know she shopped sometimes. Very occasionally she visited friends and relatives. She once went to Scotland.Other than that the woman's a blank sheet as far as any interests or hobbies are concerned.

The most telling thing about Emma to me is that even with wealth, she lived her whole life with friends and family. I'm sure she contributed financially so I'm not saying that she was a leach, but that she felt a need to live with someone. My grandfather died the year I was born, and my grandmother lived happily for 35 years by herself. Oh, she had friends and family visit nearly every day, but didn't feel the NEED to have someone there all the time. When Emma moved out of Lizzie's house, was it loneliness or fear that made her live with friends or family for the rest of her life? Did she fear laying awake at night and hearing a hatchet wielding person break in to kill her? I am always a bit more nervous watching a horror movie home alone than if my wife is there. Silly b/c I love my wife, but she couldn't stop a maniac in a hockey mask carrying a chain saw! Or was is loneliness and the pathological need for company that drove her into others' homes. When I was counseling people, I told them that to be healthy, they had to love themselves enough to be comfortable alone. Then and only then would they be able to sustain a healthy relationship. As far as the evidence shows, Emma never in her entire life lived alone.

I'm an only child, so I've always been happy with my own company (for better or worse) though I do admit, now I'm older and my adult son has moved back in with me for a while, that is a comfort, too.

Wasn't Emma supposed to have once said "One day they will come for me!" Or something like that. Maplecroft apparently had strong bars across its cellar windows. After Emma moved out she may well have craved the security of being with others and felt vulnerable as a single elderly woman. She may well have liked the company as well. I don't think she was anti-social. I'm sure she liked being with kinfolk.

Curryong, like you, I'm an only child and lived cheerfully alone until I married for the first time at almost 50 years old. My husband works weird musician hours, so I'm on my own a lot, and I'm fine with that. I take vacations by myself. It always seemed odd to me that other members of my extended family, who grew up with siblings, always wanted a lot of noise and crush around them. In Emma's case, we know that before she left Lizzie's presence, she seemed to prefer small, cozy (or claustrophobic, depending on your view) personal spaces, but why? Was it to protect herself from Lizzie's intrusive personality, if such there was? Was she made nervous by too much stimulation? Given to the writing of bad poetry, requiring contemplative seclusion? Who knows? We probably never shall. In her later years, I doubt it was a case of having or not having a sister for company, but just that she felt the need for some stability and emotional support in her life, after the murders. Possibly, she feared the intrusion of reporters and other curiosity-seekers and this was her way of shielding herself from them. One wonders if she feared being goaded by some very clever news person into revealing something she was trying to keep herself from blurting out?

Mara, I've been a voracious reader all my life, something I may not have been able to do (peacefully) if I'd had many siblings. I noticed on another thread that most of Maplecroft's second storey was taken up with a library and reading room. That would be paradise for me, but I wonder whether that was by Lizzie's wish or was Emma a keen reader too ? We know so little about her.
Emma did seem to cling to the Rev Buck and his family as she got older. Maybe she gained comfort from his advice and from religion itself in her life post-trial. Lizzie may have been too much for her sister as well. Just because they were siblings doesn't mean their personalities were complementary.

Curryong wrote:… http://phayemuss.wordpress.com/category ... ly/page/2/

I hate to tell you this, Curryong, but the Moderator of this particular web site is not welcome on this forum.

Thanks, twinsrwe. I've already received a private message about it from another poster and as you can imagine I was absolutely horrified. I didn't know,of course.

Curryong wrote:Thanks, twinsrwe. I've already received a private message about it from another poster and as you can imagine I was absolutely horrified. I didn't know,of course.

Your welcome, Curryong. I know you didn't know, and that is why I posted my message to you in the kindest way I could.

Yikes! I guess that explains why so much of that site struck me as squirrely, but does it mean that the info on the Swansea properties is suspect?

My take on Emma's need to live with others, not alone, tags onto PossumPie's statement that this behavior can be pathological. I'm fairly convinced that both Lizzie and Emma exhibited symptoms of abandonment which would be logical given that Sarah died young and also that she was ill for some time before her death. I think this underlies Emma's unwillingness to leave Lizzie until the situation became unbearable. My profession brings me into contact with a lot of women with personality disorders, and almost without exception those who had one or more parents who abandoned them in some way (death, illness, alcoholism, addiction, divorce) have a pathological need to not be alone. Sometimes being with 'anyone' - no matter how unfit - is better than being by themselves. This would explain why Emma took so long to leave once she recognized she needed to go; plus abandonment, real or perceived, can segue directly into motive for murder.

Mara wrote:Yikes! I guess that explains why so much of that site struck me as squirrely, but does it mean that the info on the Swansea properties is suspect?

“squirrely” - I love it!!!

This woman is very jealous of Stefani, and has gone as far as posting several hateful things about Stefani on her web site.

I’m sorry to say that I don’t know if the other information that is posted on her web site is worth your time and trouble, since I avoid going there.

debbiediablo wrote:My take on Emma's need to live with others, not alone, tags onto PossumPie's statement that this behavior can be pathological. I'm fairly convinced that both Lizzie and Emma exhibited symptoms of abandonment which would be logical given that Sarah died young and also that she was ill for some time before her death. I think this underlies Emma's unwillingness to leave Lizzie until the situation became unbearable. My profession brings me into contact with a lot of women with personality disorders, and almost without exception those who had one or more parents who abandoned them in some way (death, illness, alcoholism, addiction, divorce) have a pathological need to not be alone. Sometimes being with 'anyone' - no matter how unfit - is better than being by themselves. This would explain why Emma took so long to leave once she recognized she needed to go; plus abandonment, real or perceived, can segue directly into motive for murder.

Wow, Debbie, this makes a lot of sense!

It's interesting, isn't it? My mother died when I was eleven, after two years of fighting cancer. In those days,(the later 1950's,) that meant radium treatment. She spent long periods away at various hospitals and came home to die. I was always a bookworm, so maybe losing myself in books (some written for adults) was an escape for me. (By the way, unlike Andrew, my father never remarried.)
Yet, without being anti-social, I have never felt any great need for company. I came out to Australia by myself in my 20's after a friend backed out, and made friends on the ship. (It was a long journey!) I'm divorced but live quite happily by myself, though my son is here at the moment and my daughters live close by. (I also have two grandchildren.)

Sometimes siblings get on like a house on fire! Sometimes, especially in adult life, a chasm develops. It may have been the latter for Lizzie and Emma, and, after so many years of trying to blend in with Lizzie's wishes (I do think Lizzie was the dominant personality in the home) Emma just cut her losses and left.

:-) Not everyone develops a personality disorder from childhood trauma. Most people don't. And even among personality disorders, not all of the psychopaths turn into serial killers; some of them become great military leaders, CEOs, lawyers, surgeons and presidents.

twinsrwe wrote:

Mara wrote:Yikes! I guess that explains why so much of that site struck me as squirrely, but does it mean that the info on the Swansea properties is suspect?

“squirrely” - I love it!!!

This woman is very jealous of Stefani, and has gone as far as posting several hateful things about Stefani on her web site.

I’m sorry to say that I don’t know if the other information that is posted on her web site is worth your time and trouble, since I avoid going there.

Thanks, twinsrwe. I did read one peculiar swipe at Stefani and wondered about it. I'll certainly take heed.

Curryong, I'm sorry about your mother. That must have been tough for you.

Debbiediablo, I've read about that, how so many great leaders, scientists and so on exhibit the textbook profile of the sociopath. It could well be that Emma suffered abandonment issues. Do you think the relatively common occurrence of women dying in childbirth caused widespread psychogical issues, or were children so inured to such deaths that they just picked up and went on about their business?

Mental illness isn't all or nothing. We ALL have traits of many mental disorders. The key is how much is it impacting your life. I have some Obsessive/Compulsive traits, I check all the appliances before I leave the house. If I don't, I worry the house may catch fire. I only check once, and it doesn't effect my life much at all. I have Anxiety disorder traits, I tend to worry, but again It isn't so fierce that I can't function. Now...someone with those traits so severely that they are afraid to leave the home, and have panic attacks is labeled with a mental disorder. BUT they have what I do, just more severely or they don't have the coping strategies to keep it under control. When we see adults with disorders, and we look back and see trauma in childhood (which is unfortunately common) we may point to that as a precipitating factor in their adulthood disorder, BUT again there must be coping strategies also. There is a famous woman preacher in the USA named Joyce Meyer. She was sexually, emotionally and physically abused by her biological father growing up. She left home at an early age and married an abusive alcoholic. She finally got away from him, and married a wonderful man. She has every indication that she would grow up to be mentally ill, and miserable. BUT she has a wonderfully positive outlook on life, has forgiven and moved past that, and says that she could spend her life miserable and blaming her abusive father for all her troubles, but then he would be the 'winner', OR she could leave that behind, move on, be happy, successful despite the abuser, and then she would be the 'winner'.
In my years in psych, the only "secret" I have discovered is that people who continually look back at mistreatment, abuse, etc. and blame everything wrong with their lives on outside influences have a minimal chance of ever having happiness. People who said "I'm not letting the abuser win" and worked extra hard to say "I can't keep blaming all of my faults on the abuser" made progress, grew ever happier, and lead a happy life.

Personality disorders develop very early in childhood, and are agreed to be 'virtually incurable' they ARE the person's personality. Mara mentioned a great fact. There are leaders, scientists, business owners who are wildly successful b/c of their sociopathic personality traits. Again, it's not the hand you've been dealt as much as what you do with it.

Mara wrote:… Thanks, twinsrwe. I did read one peculiar swipe at Stefani and wondered about it. I'll certainly take heed.

You’re welcome, Mara.

PossumPie wrote:Mental illness isn't all or nothing. We ALL have traits of many mental disorders. The key is how much is it impacting your life. I have some Obsessive/Compulsive traits, I check all the appliances before I leave the house. If I don't, I worry the house may catch fire. I only check once, and it doesn't effect my life much at all. I have Anxiety disorder traits, I tend to worry, but again It isn't so fierce that I can't function. Now...someone with those traits so severely that they are afraid to leave the home, and have panic attacks is labeled with a mental disorder. BUT they have what I do, just more severely or they don't have the coping strategies to keep it under control. When we see adults with disorders, and we look back and see trauma in childhood (which is unfortunately common) we may point to that as a precipitating factor in their adulthood disorder, BUT again there must be coping strategies also. There is a famous woman preacher in the USA named Joyce Meyer. She was sexually, emotionally and physically abused by her biological father growing up. She left home at an early age and married an abusive alcoholic. She finally got away from him, and married a wonderful man. She has every indication that she would grow up to be mentally ill, and miserable. BUT she has a wonderfully positive outlook on life, has forgiven and moved past that, and says that she could spend her life miserable and blaming her abusive father for all her troubles, but then he would be the 'winner', OR she could leave that behind, move on, be happy, successful despite the abuser, and then she would be the 'winner'.
In my years in psych, the only "secret" I have discovered is that people who continually look back at mistreatment, abuse, etc. and blame everything wrong with their lives on outside influences have a minimal chance of ever having happiness. People who said "I'm not letting the abuser win" and worked extra hard to say "I can't keep blaming all of my faults on the abuser" made progress, grew ever happier, and lead a happy life.

Personality disorders develop very early in childhood, and are agreed to be 'virtually incurable' they ARE the person's personality. Mara mentioned a great fact. There are leaders, scientists, business owners who are wildly successful b/c of their sociopathic personality traits. Again, it's not the hand you've been dealt as much as what you do with it.

WOW, Possum, what an awesome post!!! I absolutely love the things you post, because I learn a lot from what you have to say; so, thank you! I didn’t know the background information, you posted, on Joyce Meyer; it’s no wonder she is one of my favorite preachers!

twinsrwe wrote:

Mara wrote:Yikes! I guess that explains why so much of that site struck me as squirrely, but does it mean that the info on the Swansea properties is suspect?

“squirrely” - I love it!!!

This woman is very jealous of Stefani, and has gone as far as posting several hateful things about Stefani on her web site.

I’m sorry to say that I don’t know if the other information that is posted on her web site is worth your time and trouble, since I avoid going there.

i was the one who wrote to curryong. i'd come across an old post briefly mentioning trouble here, and it rang a distant bell. then i'd been googling for something or another, and found some interesting info on the site, scrolled down and found some very alarming and off-putting stuff the blogger wrote about stefani and this forum. that's when it all came back to me. before i found that, i was going to post a link to the info, but then thought never mind!

anyway, enough on that topic, and back to emma.

curryong, i'm sorry about your mom, too. yes, it must have been hard.

i too was a bookworm from early on. in fact i'd read anything that had words on it - cereal boxes, stuff in the medicine cabinet, you name it. but books were the best. it was probably partially escape for me as well, but a lot of it was just for the joy of reading.

i'd read recently that lizzie had quite an extensive, and expensive, book collection. can't recall the exact figure now, but it was worth quite a lot. wouldn't it be fun to read an inventory of the titles she had in her library? two whole rooms devoted to books and reading, sounds great to me! but i do wonder if emma also loved reading. it's weird how little we know about her. i realize she wanted it that way - a private life - but still.

i wonder if a large part of the problem between lizzie and emma had to do with emma wanting to continue to 'mother and protect' lizzie, even though lizzie was an adult. when their parents were alive, there was a strong bond of 'us against them' between them, but after their parents were dead and the trial over, that was soon gone. come to think of it, it was one of a very few things they did have in common. their personalities were so different.

both of them wanted to be free of abby, and the imposed confines of frugality (at least) of their father, but they wanted very different lives once free of them. emma wanted a nicer life than they'd had on 2nd street, but a quiet one, and definitely not doing anything else that might call attention them and bring them back into the spotlight!

lizzie also wanted a nicer life, filled with the nice things she'd always longed for (more so than emma), but she did *not* want a quiet life. she wanted to be free to do the things she'd always wanted to do. if the price for that was calling attention to herself - including emma - so be it; she didn't care. fall river society had already rejected her, so what did she have to lose?

i can see lizzie chaffing under emma's continued attempts to mother and protect her, it feeling too reminiscent of being under andrew's thumb. probably the more emma tried, the more lizzie rebelled. emma would have felt like she was losing the control over lizzie she'd always had, and that lizzie was determined to cause even more shame to their already sullied family name.

Catbooks wrote:

twinsrwe wrote:

Mara wrote:Yikes! I guess that explains why so much of that site struck me as squirrely, but does it mean that the info on the Swansea properties is suspect?

“squirrely” - I love it!!!

This woman is very jealous of Stefani, and has gone as far as posting several hateful things about Stefani on her web site.

I’m sorry to say that I don’t know if the other information that is posted on her web site is worth your time and trouble, since I avoid going there.

i was the one who wrote to curryong. i'd come across an old post briefly mentioning trouble here, and it rang a distant bell. then i'd been googling for something or another, and found some interesting info on the site, scrolled down and found some very alarming and off-putting stuff the blogger wrote about stefani and this forum. that's when it all came back to me. before i found that, i was going to post a link to the info, but then thought never mind!

anyway, enough on that topic, and back to emma.

I agree, enough about that subject!

I can imagine Lizzie having lots of the popular fiction of the time, in her library, including sloppy Victorian poetry. She would have had Shakespeare in leather-bound editions I'm sure, and probably Dickens.

She seems to have gone for the surprisingly sentimental, if those two porcelain pieces she stole, 'Love's Dream' and 'Love's Awakening' are typical examples of her taste in art. The artist who painted them originally, whose name I can't remember at the moment, often painted chocolate boxy scenes of young children cuddling dogs, and the like.

I think she would have had books on different places in the world, reminding her of her European trip, (why didn't she ever go again. Was it because Emma didn't want to go, and there was no-one else to ask?) also books about animals. Who knows, maybe she had some romance novels tucked away as well.

Catbooks wrote:curryong, i'm sorry about your mom, too. yes, it must have been hard.

i too was a bookworm from early on. in fact i'd read anything that had words on it - cereal boxes, stuff in the medicine cabinet, you name it. but books were the best. it was probably partially escape for me as well, but a lot of it was just for the joy of reading.

i'd read recently that lizzie had quite an extensive, and expensive, book collection. can't recall the exact figure now, but it was worth quite a lot. wouldn't it be fun to read an inventory of the titles she had in her library? two whole rooms devoted to books and reading, sounds great to me! but i do wonder if emma also loved reading. it's weird how little we know about her. i realize she wanted it that way - a private life - but still.

i wonder if a large part of the problem between lizzie and emma had to do with emma wanting to continue to 'mother and protect' lizzie, even though lizzie was an adult. when their parents were alive, there was a strong bond of 'us against them' between them, but after their parents were dead and the trial over, that was soon gone. come to think of it, it was one of a very few things they did have in common. their personalities were so different.

both of them wanted to be free of abby, and the imposed confines of frugality (at least) of their father, but they wanted very different lives once free of them. emma wanted a nicer life than they'd had on 2nd street, but a quiet one, and definitely not doing anything else that might call attention them and bring them back into the spotlight!

lizzie also wanted a nicer life, filled with the nice things she'd always longed for (more so than emma), but she did *not* want a quiet life. she wanted to be free to do the things she'd always wanted to do. if the price for that was calling attention to herself - including emma - so be it; she didn't care. fall river society had already rejected her, so what did she have to lose?

i can see lizzie chaffing under emma's continued attempts to mother and protect her, it feeling too reminiscent of being under andrew's thumb. probably the more emma tried, the more lizzie rebelled. emma would have felt like she was losing the control over lizzie she'd always had, and that lizzie was determined to cause even more shame to their already sullied family name.

An unknown physician published his first book in 1887 called A Study in Scarlet. His name...Arthur Conan Doyle. Wonder if that was on her shelves

I just realized this is my 600th post, so I wanted to do something special with it. After much thought...

Many congratulations Possum, and what better way to celebrate than with a photo of your idol and mine!

Congratulations, Possum!!!

congratulations, possum!

I wonder whether there were any books on poisons, just in case....Perhaps not!

or a nice illustrated book on edge tools.

i just came across a reference to one of the books in lizzie's collection. it was on travel, about italy.

also, thanks to curryong for pointing me in the direction of an old thread (currently on page 3 of the forum, titled What do you think about John Morse?), i was struck by the description of john morse's always living with someone - relatives, friends - throughout his life. even though he owned several properties with houses. he, like emma, apparently didn't like living alone.

Some interesting bits about Emma

http://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/tag/emma-borden/

I draw your attention, folks, to a rather intriguing little newspaper item under 'Lizzie writes a letter' in the above link. If true, (newspaper not making it up) something to ponder!

hmm. if that's true, why didn't jennings ask emma about it and call those who'd seen the letter to the stand? maybe it wasn't strong enough evidence to bother with.

in the first article at the top, i was struck by how even though in 1897 emma was a very wealthy woman, she was only ordering one new dress for summer.

Yes, it was an Iowa newspaper, and more than likely the report was just rumour. I was thinking more on the lines though, of Lizzie perhaps lifting the fear factor among family members that something was about to happen, that somebody was out to 'get' Andrew. I just wonder if she mentioned strange men hanging around outside to Abby and her father in the days before the murder.

Remember that club Alice Russell found under Andrew's bed which frightened her so much? Of course Andrew was old and perhaps thought protection like that was needed. (What must it have been like, natural creaks and groans in a house in the blackness of the night, and not being able to switch on an electric light!)

Yes, one new dress! Emma certainly wasn't a fashionista, was she? The fact that she wanted it for 'calling' though, does suggest that she did some socialising while she was holidaying in the country.

On an entirely different subject, I believe that Emma was born on March 1st and that makes her a Piscean. According to my 'Parker's Astrology' which helps with one of my hobbies, drawing charts/ horoscopes.

' Pisceans are kind, intuitive, friendly and charitable. They are very self-sacrificing, but their willingness to help others has a drawback as too often they use helping others as an excuse not to fulfil their own potential. They are so busy using their energies on behalf of family and friends that they have little time to devote to their own affairs.'

just found a couple of interesting things about the mysterious and elusive emma.

this article was published shortly after she died:

download/file.php?id=249&mode=view

and i found this:

william wrote:

Susan wrote:I just checked my stock of Lizzie books, nothing about Emma changing her name. Mostly it was just that she chose to live in anonymity. Sorry, I tried.

From the Archives:

"Re Emma's assumed name"
Posted by William on Sep-14-03

(Lizzie Borden Message Board Archives
Posted by TILBA on August 25, 1999)

"Now that I know the whereabouts of the Swansea farm, I'm curious abot Emma's home in Newmarket, NH. Does anyone know the address?
I understand it's a private residence and not open to the public. Has anyone beside Frank Spiering ever been allowed in?"

Last summer Bill and I went to find the old farmhouse and take some pictures. Since it is a private residence we did not attempt to go on the property nor did we want to bother the residents.

However, while we were there a nice lady came out and invited us in for lemonade. We accepted and sat on the porch in Emma's wicker rocker with a descendent of Emma's tabby cat sitting on my lap.
The lady later admitted that the only reason she let us visit is because she had recognized me as the curator of the Lizzie Borden house from a newspaper article. The only other person she let in was indeed Frank Spiering. She did not like Frank and said he had lied in the book There was no secret stairway, no set of light switches and no bars on the windows. ANNIE BORDEN, AS SHE WAS KNOWN WENTG TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY.

Note: I believe tht two individuals mentioned in this message wer Bill Pavao and Bill Quigley.

on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=315

emma had a cat! and did go to church every sunday. and had changed her name to annie borden. huh.

couldn't help but notice in that article she was referred to as frugal.

Well done for your work in finding this! It was always said that while Lizzie dropped out of all Church activities after the trial Emma became quite religious, and here's the proof of it! So, like her sister Emma loved animals, but she went for felines. I wonder why she just changed her first name, though, not much of a disguise! I think her life must still have been extremely secluded, as well as frugal, (more like Andrew and Abby in habits, then!)
I read Frank Spiering's 'Prince Jack' (which was about Jack the Ripper) years ago, and was disgusted by it. He was challenged on some of his sources in that book and just refused to reply. Basically, he was just a fiction writer, and a not very good one at that!

probably emma had cats because aside from maplecroft, she never had her own home. cats are easier when you're living in a boarding house type of arrangement than dogs are. or who knows, maybe she just preferred them. her life does sound pretty secluded, once she arrived in new hampshire. before that, we're given the impression she was reasonably social.

ha, i thought about that, her name change. but the areas were fairly crawling with bordens, so a first name change would have done the tric.

i only read spiering's lizzie book. it was terrible.

Yes, cats are much better able to look after themselves, in that sense. I like both, but I am more of a dog person. Emma moved quite often after leaving Maplecroft, didn't she? I remember reading of her moving every three years or so as a general rule, and staying with friends like the Reverend Buck's daughters, and cousins.

yeah, she moved around a lot after maplecroft. i wonder if that bothered her or if she enjoyed the change of scenery. up until maplecroft she'd only lived in two houses her entire life.

i also like both, but equally. they're different. if i only have one, i miss having the other.