Lizzie Borden Society Forum

There is no evidence to support Morse’s motive for murder by me speculated. Ok. Some, many, most, or all of you think that it is highly unlikely that Morse had that motive, therefore, it is most probably Morse hadn’t that motive.

Maybe I have to agree. But I would say:

There is no evidence that Morse had been informed by anyone about the location of Andrew’s body, therefore, it is highly unlikely that someone informed him it, and therefore, it is most probably that Morse “discovered” Andrew’s body directly, by himself, without being informed.

Certainly, if Morse arrived to a house completely desert, inside and outside, he could have adventured alone and accidently discovered Andrew’s body at any place. But what actually occured was:

1. He met Bridget. Bridget testified to have informed Morse the murder, but she didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
2. He met Mr. Sawyer. Mr. Sawyer testified to have informed Morse the murder, but he didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
3. He met Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill testified to have informed Morse the murder, but she didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
4. After Mrs. Churchill spoke to him, Morse hollered Lizzie’s name and rushed into the dinning room where Lizzie and Alice were. But Morse didn’t speak to them, he even didn’t notice who they were. He went (directly) into the sitting room where Andrew’s body was lying on the sofa.

Please shoot me, my friends.

(P.S.: I invite you to discuss, under this thread, only this question: who could have informed Morse about the location of Andrew’s body. Thank you very much.)

Franz wrote:There is no evidence to support Morse’s motive for murder by me speculated. Ok. Some, many, most, or all of you think that it is highly unlikely that Morse had that motive, therefore, it is most probably Morse hadn’t that motive.

Maybe I have to agree. But I would say:

There is no evidence that Morse had been informed by anyone about the location of Andrew’s body, therefore, it is highly unlikely that someone informed him it, and therefore, it is most probably that Morse “discovered” Andrew’s body directly, by himself, without being informed.

Certainly, if Morse arrived to a house completely desert, inside and outside, he could have adventured alone and accidently discovered Andrew’s body at any place. But what actually occured was:

1. He met Bridget. Bridget testified to have informed Morse the murder, but she didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
2. He met Mr. Sawyer. Mr. Sawyer testified to have informed Morse the murder, but he didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
3. He met Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill testified to have informed Morse the murder, but she didn’t testify to have informed him about the location of Andrew’s body.
4. After Mrs. Churchill spoke to him, Morse hollered Lizzie’s name and rushed into the dinning room where Lizzie and Alice were. But Morse didn’t speak to them, he even didn’t notice who they were. He went (directly) into the sitting room where Andrew’s body was lying on the sofa.

Please shoot me, my friends.

(P.S.: I invite you to discuss, under this thread, only this question: who could have informed Morse about the location of Andrew’s body. Thank you very much.)

Here goes Franz:
1. Morse was confirmed to be at nieces at time of murders. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
2. Someone told Morse that Andrew was dead. We don't know who told, or when. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
3. Morse came to Borden's side door and testified that no large crowd was there, just two people Sawyer and Sullivan. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
4. Morse ate some pears. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
5. Morse approached the side door, was told of the murders and entered the side door into the kitchen. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
6. Morse turned to his right, and entered the door ahead of him, to the sitting room. Saw the body. (Sworn Trial Testimony)
7. Morse walked part way up the stairs, saw Mrs. Borden's legs, came back down (Sworn Trial Testimony)
8. Morse then saw Lizzie sitting in dining room, called her name. (Sworn Trial Testimony)

Your suspicion is ONLY b/c you feel Morse went straight to the body, no one told him where it was. BUT he entered the side door into the kitchen, and when he turned to his right, he either had to go straight through a door, or turn again to his right and go into the dining room. It was a 50% chance he would enter one or the other door...and the door to the sitting room was in front of his nose.
This doesn't mean he had foreknowledge that Andrew was in that room. I bet you could take everyone who came to the house right after the murders, the police, the doctors, the neighbors, and put half of them in a group of people who "Entered the kitchen then went straight to the Sitting room." That does NOT mean that they were in on the murders, just that they went straight through the door in front of their face.

In the USA, a trial testimony or a deposition is NOT EVERY WORD EVER SAID. If I depose or swear in a trial that I told my neighbor that his wife was found dead. I could have actually said "They found you wife dead in the sitting room". I don't have to give EXACT words in deposition or trial, mainly b/c I probably don't remember exact words. You make a huge piece of your theory to be that three people told Morse of the murder, but none of them told him where the body was. Well, perhaps one or all DID tell him, they just shortened their statements in court. Read through all SWORN testimony by all witnesses. It is full of many small inconsistencies, and some vary large inconsistencies. Maybe some are b/c someone is lying, but most are b/c in the middle of a very scary situation, you don't remember things exactly.
Secondly, again, standing in that kitchen, there were ONLY 2 POSSIBILITIES. Go straight into the sitting room, or dog-leg around to the right and enter the dining room. Perhaps he just picked the simplest door and went in. HOW in the heck can you pin a murder charge on a man who picks the "right door"?

PossumPie, wihtout for the moment entering into any detail of your reply, I have only one question now: why did you quote only the trial testimony?

I believe Franz, and I'm out so without my notes, that, after eating a couple of pears, John Morse wandered up to the house where he saw Charles Sawyer guarding the outside door and poor old Bridget sitting on the lower part of the rear stairs. He then went in the kitchen. Am I correct?

It was a very small house and awkwardly laid out. Morse wasn't scuttling down yards of corridors. From the kitchen he had two choices. He could have gone into the sitting room or he could have gone into the dining room.)

In his testimony, ( page 28) he was asked whether he went in the sittingroom first and he states he did. No prevaricating. He may have expected to see Andrew lying dead on the couch especially if Andrew was in the habit of taking a nap on said couch in the middle of the day and John knew it. He may have expected to see him dead on the hearth rug or in an armchair. If he hadn't been dead in that particular room then Morse would probably have investigated the dining room or the parlour.

At a guess I would say that if anyone told John where Andrew was lying it was probably Sawyer or one of the two policemen he remembered seeing. It was probably so inconsequential a snippet of conversation neither remembered it later. It was probably something like "He's in here" or "He's on the couch", something like that.

I'd say, looking at it with a cool eye, that it was odder that John then decided to go upstairs or at least part of the way up, where he caught a glimpse of Abby from the stairs. That he chose to do that rather than try to comfort his niece Lizzie, whom he saw in the dining room after he came down is a bit eccentric, but then John Morse seems to have been a bit of an eccentric man.

Franz wrote:PossumPie, wihtout for the moment entering into any detail of your reply, I have only one question now: why did you quote only the trial testimony?

No reason except that it was handy.
Borden house was NOT a Maze of 100 rooms that he suspiciously entered the correct one.....There were ONLY TWO CHOICES. Flip a coin, heads or tails.... equal chance of picking the right door. He had a 50/50 chance...

I walked in my front door today, and could have gone right into my Family room, or Left into my Living room. I didn't know where my wife was sitting, but I turned left. I WALKED DIRECTLY INTO THE VERY ROOM SHE WAS SITTING!!!!! FANTASTIC!!!! I MUST BE PSYCHIC!!!!! I CAN"T BELIEVE I WALKED INTO THE VERY ROOM SHE WAS SITTING!!! AMAZING! I SWEAR nobody told me which room she was in....Unbelievable right??????

(Trying to be honest-yet funny)

PossumPie wrote:

Franz wrote:PossumPie, wihtout for the moment entering into any detail of your reply, I have only one question now: why did you quote only the trial testimony?

No reason except that it was handy.
Borden house was NOT a Maze of 100 rooms that he suspiciously entered the correct one.....There were ONLY TWO CHOICES. Flip a coin, heads or tails.... equal chance of picking the right door. He had a 50/50 chance...

I walked in my front door today, and could have gone right into my Family room, or Left into my Living room. I didn't know where my wife was sitting, but I turned left. I WALKED DIRECTLY INTO THE VERY ROOM SHE WAS SITTING!!!!! FANTASTIC!!!! I MUST BE PSYCHIC!!!!! I CAN"T BELIEVE I WALKED INTO THE VERY ROOM SHE WAS SITTING!!! AMAZING! I SWEAR nobody told me which room she was in....Unbelievable right??????

(Trying to be honest-yet funny)

1. Well. I invite you to re-read the witness statement, the Inquest Testimony and the Preliminary Hearing.

2. While you entered in your house, was there someone other than your wife there? I copy here a phrase of my thread, because it seems to me that you didn't read it: "Certainly, if Morse arrived to a house completely desert, inside and outside, he could have adventured alone and accidently discovered Andrew’s body at any place. But what actually occured was..."

It is also likely, IMO, that he was told where the bodies were. This would not be unusual-- and he was NOT specifically asked if he had inquired as to their location. Nor was he asked how he knew to look in the sitting room, etc. Testimony tells us the sitting room door to the kitchen was frequently used. If it were me, entering the house I would naturally go from the kitchen to the sitting room as a matter of routine. From the dining room you'd have to pass through the sitting room to get the the front hallways and the stairs, or front door. Although we know there was a sofa or lounge in the dining room-- why sedge-way through there at all as a matter of routine?