Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Mary Grein or Sarah Welch??

No, sorry BOBO, never heard of either of them??

I haven't heard of them either.

BOBO wrote:Mary Grein or Sarah Welch??

I have been in phone contact with decedents of Mary Grein for the last 6 months, both here and in Ireland. I have spoken with 6. While some are here and in Ireland THEY ALL TELL THE SAME STORY. She was the servant in the Borden household in 1880. What they say IS STARTLYING ... Their stories match!!! NO WAY writers could have missed this.

Really? Wow, how interesting! What did they have to say?

Ooh, BOBO, this sounds very interesting indeed!

Let's guess: Billy Borden was the illegitimate son of Andrew Borden and one of his daughters...which would account for his mental and cognitive deficits and for Lizzie and Emma protecting him.

Andrew had an affair with the servant, who had a daughter, and she went back to America in 1892, swearing revenge. She told the whole story to Lizzie, who was so disgusted she and the servant killed both parents!

BOBO, can you tell us more?

BOBO wrote:

BOBO wrote:Mary Grein or Sarah Welch??

I have been in phone contact with decedents of Mary Grein for the last 6 months, both here and in Ireland. I have spoken with 6. While some are here and in Ireland THEY ALL TELL THE SAME STORY. She was the servant in the Borden household in 1880. What they say IS STARTLYING ... Their stories match!!! NO WAY writers could have missed this.

I have made repeated request to Grein, (Grean), decedents to join this forum and tell their side of the story, but to no avail. I told them that they would be treated with respect but to be prepared to answer some tough questions. I did this as not wanting to get into a "he said, she said" discussion. As most of them are up in years, they have refused. Only one admits to having heard of this forum but admits to having never visited. I have asked their permission to share e-mails that I have received from them and currently await their reply.

Name Sarah Welch sounds familiar but I can't pinpoint it.

Sounds like you are onto something interesting. Problem is family traditions can sometimes be inaccurate. Some of my family traditions I can't prove and I don't know what to make of it all, especially since my family was quiet and truthful and not flamboyant as I tend to be.

Still it is important to get all the input and see if it leads anywhere else. Sometimes little crumbs of information are little crumbs of truth. Even legends and folklore have kernels of truth to be found and understood.

I knew Sarah Welch was familiar!

On this forum under a heading "Check Out Family Search.org's New Beta Site", nbcatlover posted on 11/18/2010 some genealogy information on the Borden household in the 1865 census. Sarah Welch is listed as living in the household and is a 21 year old female. Also in the household is Elizabeth Morse, age 29. There are a lot of posts on that thread so I am going to go back to it ASAP.

According to the site irina quoted Elizabeth MAY have been a cousin, and sister to Henrietta, who later came out and defended Lizzie while characterising her as 'peculiar'! A back-handed compliment, if ever I heard one!

Screen shots from US Census

Interesting debbie, thanks for posting that. I wonder whether Mary married a Grein or whether it's just a variant of Green. All the servants, housekeeper etc would have had their own unique perspective on the Borden family. What anecdotes they could tell.

Interesting debbie, thanks for posting that. I wonder whether Mary married a Grein or whether it's just a variant of Green. All the servants, housekeeper etc would have had their own unique perspective on the Borden family. What anecdotes they could tell!

Interesting that she had her passport sent to Thomas J. Borden....

Would that be Colonel Thomas J Borden of the powerful and influential side of the family? I believe his daughters were in the party touring Europe.

I am usually the skeptic here, "Family tradition" stories are among the most distorted, and false types of 'evidence' My wife's family held a very strong proud family belief that an ancestor was a Native American Indian chief. When a cousin finally did the research and proved conclusively that the ancestor had in fact no Native American blood, but just happened to be born in a town with an "Indian sounding name" The family was furious. They called him a liar. He showed me the research b/c I also had been researching my family genealogy, and it was flawless...they had NO Indian chief. Funny thing is my family also had passed down that there was Native American Indian blood in it, but I traced the family back to the late 1700's and found none. People pass things along, they get embellished, and what may have been speculation generations earlier, is passed down as Fact. That is the major skepticism I have here also about the "Grandma" story about Lizzie's death-bed confession about her boyfriend killing her parents. No facts, just family gossip. I guarantee that among the old Fall River families, many have family stories about knowing who killed the Bordens, or having a family member involved in some way. People want to be part of a big historical event, especially if their family truly did live nearby at the time.

BOBO wrote:Mary Grein or Sarah Welch??

At the request of the Grein family I will no longer post on this topic. My apologies to the Grein family and forum members.

Of course, BOBO. We understand! Though we remain curious!

I'm sorry to hear this, BOBO, but we must respect and honor the Grein Family's request.

It is always good to honor a source. I sincerely hope they will consider sharing their knowledge with an historic group in the future. This case aside, oral histories and other reminiscences are so important.