Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I thought that this part list of residents, from Rebello, page 562 Appendix D, might be of interest.

Second Street (west side between Borden and Spring Streets)

75. Wooden building with tenements
77. Mrs Sarah M. Cowley (widow)
79. Thomas Ready Liquors
81-83 A.C. Hampton, Grocers, wholesalers.
Levi Wood Carriage trimmer
Augustus Rich, Machinist
LL Hall's Stables. Louis Hall
85. Buildings
89. Elisha Spear, laundryman and Inez Spear, dressmaker
Oscar Douglas, photographer, house and shop
91. 1st Floor Dr Seabury Bowen. 2nd Floor Mrs Mary Wyatt
93. 1st Floor Southard Miller, his wife and son, Franklin H. Miller
95-97. Orchard
99 NY/ Boston Express carriage house.
101 Gew Lee Laundry
103 John Gray and Sarah Gray Paint Shop

Second St (East side) between Borden and Rodman Streets

74. Wooden buildings
76 Union Plumbing Co. William Woldendale, agent; Mrs Parkinson dressmaker
78 Charles Sawyer, sign writer
80 Mrs A Tripp, Restaurant
84 Mrs Phebe Burt (widow)
86-88 Mrs Adelaide Churchill/ mrs John Gromeley
92 The Bordens.
94 Vacant
96 Dr Michael Kelly
98-100 Vernon Wade's Grocery Store Mrs Mary Chace, widow of Nathan Chace
102. Orchard
104. Christopher Hughes and John O'Keefe, priests, St Mary's Church
106 Brennan family
108. Bridget Whitaker, variety store
110-112. Annie Robinson, confectionary, George Kelly
114 unknown
116 1/2 Hop Lee, laundry
118. Rubin Woodcock P., remnants

Some familiar names here, Hall's Stables, Augusta Tripp, (Lizzie's friend) Mary Chace's son, who was an onlooker on Second St on that Thursday.

B is for Andrew Borden
G is for Mrs. Jane Gray
P is for Smith Pharmacy where Eli Bence later worked
The streets you see are - west to east - Pearl Street, Main Street, Second Street, Third Street and Fourth Street. South to north - Rodman Street (Columbia almost connects to the east), Spring Street which later went east as far as Third Street, and Borden Street.

Thank you, debbie, that is a help.

The distance from Borden's to the Gray house via either Rodman or Borden was between 1/5 and 1/4 mile or the length of 4 football fields ; the distance to Smith Pharmacy where Eli Bence later worked was between 1/7 and 1/6 mile or the length of 2 2/3 football fields. Bridget could've seen the Gray house where Sarah Whitehead lived from her bedroom window.

Fascinating, everyone! I note that Number 94 is "vacant". Wasn't that Dr. Kelly's? Didn't Bridget talk to the other girl over that fence?

That is a crowded neighborhood. Reinforces my thoughts about an intruder. Lots of places to escape to and come from. Lots of strangers attracted to the neighborhood for the commerce, etc.

Well spotted, irina! I wish I could say that I didn't include Dr Kelly to see if anyone would notice but it was a plain and simple boo-boo on my part. However, if no 94 IS a vacant block as it appears to be in Rebello, it doesn't show a vacant block on any of the drawings showing that part of Second St that appeared in newspapers of the time. Another little mystery! (No 96 was Alice Russell's old abode when Lizzie was a teenager.)

I agree with Irina and am thinking much the same thing. The neighborhood is crowded, very close to downtown and well within commercial endeavors, busy with through streets and loaded with single and multi-family housing, barns, out buildings, fences, plus lots of trees. Even the most observant onlooker could miss someone or something.

Here's an interesting interview followed by a news article with Charles Manson's acolyte Patricia Krenwinkel. I probably would vote not to parole; some crimes are so horrific that full retribution must be exacted. Even so, what terrible mistakes can be made within the vulnerability of young adulthood.

https://screen.yahoo.com/popular/life-m ... .html?vp=1

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 58137.html

All it takes is one crazy person. But reasonably I have to admit the crazy person needs to happen to have a hatchet in his pocket and be able to hang around for awhile. I don't have a problem with the latter but others do.

The Manson Family got the death penalty but weren't executed because capital punishment was temporarily outlawed by our Supreme Court. Thus they got life without parole. I think probably all but Charlie are rehabilitated and would pose no threat to society. BUT our society demands an ultimate punishment for an ultimate crime. I think in the British and European countries some really horrendous criminals are let out after a period of time. In our country people would never accept this.

As an opponent of the death penalty I feel Manson's family needs to do life without parole which is the wish of the victims' families. It makes the statement that unusually heinous criminals CAN be locked away from society forever. Susan Atkins developed a brain tumor and she was not allowed out for compassionate leave and she died in prison. I think it is important politically that they not be allowed out.

Life sentences in Britain and Australia generally mean twenty five years, more horrendous crimes, (not necessarily one murder), get 30 years, or papers marked 'never to be released'. Of course, some murderers receive less. It depends on the circumstances and a parole period is almost always set.

Australia had 254 murders in 2012, (the latest figures I could get my hands on) population is 22.68 million. 551 murders were committed in England and Wales in 2013. (Scotland has a different set of statistics.) population of England and Wales is 56.1 million.

Irina, I was interested to note that in the U.S. the murder rate is higher in death penalty states each year than it is in States that do not impose the death penalty.

Tex Watson was Manson’s lead man, and the main killer in the Tate-LaBianca murders. Suzan LaBerge, Rosemary and Leno LaBianca’s daughter, has forgiven Tex and feels he should be paroled. However, Doris Tate does not feel the same way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLRHouRRao8

Good point Curryong. Death penalty does not deter. As some would say it does ensure that that dead murderer will never kill again.

To discuss our murder rate I would have to go into politics and things I think I shouldn't discuss on the forum. We would have a low murder rate if it wasn't for big city crime. For suggested reading I encourage you to google the shooting toll in the city of Chicago. There are issues of race, poverty, welfare, failing schools, gangs, drugs, etc. You name it. Because some would like to take our ability to own guns, many statistics can be inflated. I suggest looking at NRA statistics as they are more accurate.

Sharon Tate's family is adamant that none of Manson's family get out. I do support her right to feel that way.

I think there is a lot to be said for putting away serious criminals for a long period of years then letting them out. It is said most criminals get too old to do it any more and they pose no more threat to society. Actually some really bad people have been released in old age in the US and they didn't hurt anyone afterward. Billy the Axeman was one of those, but there was some question about if he did, exactly what if anything.

irina wrote:Good point Curryong. Death penalty does not deter. As some would say it does ensure that that dead murderer will never kill again.

To discuss our murder rate I would have to go into politics and things I think I shouldn't discuss on the forum. We would have a low murder rate if it wasn't for big city crime. For suggested reading I encourage you to google the shooting toll in the city of Chicago. There are issues of race, poverty, welfare, failing schools, gangs, drugs, etc. You name it. Because some would like to take our ability to own guns, many statistics can be inflated. I suggest looking at NRA statistics as they are more accurate.

Sharon Tate's family is adamant that none of Manson's family get out. I do support her right to feel that way.

I think there is a lot to be said for putting away serious criminals for a long period of years then letting them out. It is said most criminals get too old to do it any more and they pose no more threat to society. Actually some really bad people have been released in old age in the US and they didn't hurt anyone afterward. Billy the Axeman was one of those, but there was some question about if he did, exactly what if anything.

Henry Lee Moore killed his mother and grandmother expressly for the inheritance. This happened in Columbia, MO, and the murder weapon was an ax. Beyond the ax, there was absolutely zero commonality with the other 24 murders now attributed to Billy the Axeman. Moore (no relation to the murdered Moore family in Villisca) was jailed in 1912, and a few people took the opportunity to claim Billy the Axeman had been caught. Then in 1917 Rev. Lyn George Jacklin Kelly confessed to the Villisca murders, was tried and acquitted! Billy the Axeman (evidence strongly points to one killer and the killings did stop in 1912 but who knows!) walked off into history just like Jack the Ripper.

debbiediablo wrote:The distance from Borden's to the Gray house via either Rodman or Borden was between 1/5 and 1/4 mile or the length of 4 football fields ; the distance to Smith Pharmacy where Eli Bence later worked was between 1/7 and 1/6 mile or the length of 2 2/3 football fields. Bridget could've seen the Gray house where Sarah Whitehead lived from her bedroom window.

However (I am about to debate with myself... ) Bridget couldn't find where Alice Russell lived so maybe she didn't know the neighborhood all that well.