Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Okay, every couple of years I bring up the possibility of a meat cleaver being the murder weapon. Let's see what the new members say about this. If a hatchet was used as the weapon I really don't see why anyone would then take it with him or her or try to hide it. What would have been the point? It would have been a problem to dispose of it. It would be easy to just to leave it on the floor somewhere after the deed was done. Since there was little, if any, forensics at that time, the murderer wouldn't have worried about fingerprints. In the murder of the farm girl nearby, the murderer just dropped it. Secondly, I find it difficult to believe that Abby would have had such a clean "flap" cut on the side of her head if the murderer had used a hatchet. She was facing the killer, so her head was not up against something that would allow a hatchet to make such a sharp cut because her head probably moved backward when she was struck. A meat cleaver would be much sharper than a heavier edged hatchet. Also, I find it difficult to think that a hatchet could make such a sharp, clean cut through Andrew's eye. I would think a hatchet would have crushed it, rather than sliced it. If the meat cleaver was used at an angle, rather than straight on, I could see it making the same size cut in the scalp as a hatchet. It would have been very easy to wash down the cleaver afterwards and put it back in a drawer. It would also be easier to hide when entering the room to catch someone unaware.

I agree! I have also discussed this before from my perspective. I (probably alone in this group) actually cut up meat scraps and occasional road kill with a hatchet, for pet food. I have experience! My hatchet isn't real sharp and probably couldn't make wounds such as were found on the Bordens. On the other hand Possum says his hatchets are kept nice and sharp. I also use mine to chop roots, kindling, and various other odd things.

That is a good idea about a cleaver, Angel, except the police I think scoured the house for axe/hatchet/sharp instruments. I don't think they left cleavers and took the others including the broken handle hatchet. I also don't favour much if any clean up on Lizzie's part after Andrew's death. Short time. I could go for throwing the hatchet onto Crowe's barn or slipping it into a hole in the wall. I also think it's possible it went into the coal scuttle in the big closet or whatever it was where the dress ended up eventually. Since the police didn't seriously look for evidence for a while it could have been totally missed. (But keep in mind I think Lizzie is innocent.)

Therefore I think the murder weapon was something that belonged to the murderer and may have been traceable to him via a profession. For instance it could have been a tool that was used in a trade, including a cleaver/hatchet used in the meat industry. Possibly the killer took it with him in case he had to defend himself as he got away. Maybe he threw it onto Crowe's barn, or not.

It REALLY bothers me the way the authorities of the day emphasized "a very sharp instrument". To me this isn't a hatchet. Granted the shape of the wounds indicate a hatchet like instrument but that doesn't mean hatchet necessarily. Over and over the sharpness is emphasized. I think that is a clue but others don't think so. At the very first even a razor was suggested and I think in other places the sharpness of a razor is mentioned. To me this isn't a hatchet. Even if a hatchet was that sharp, how, when and where did it come from? Such instruments found in the Borden home were not extremely well sharpened nor well cared for it seems. So family habit seems to be to have old hatchets, one with ox blood, etc. In some cases in those days such tools were sold dull, without an edge so the buyer could sharpen it to his specifications. I have no idea if this was the usual way or not. If it was usual, did Lizzie hone an edge to the hatchet that could accomplish murder? If hatchets were sold with razor sharp edges, OK, Lizzie could have obtained one. Otherwise a razor sharp hatchet came from somewhere, possibly in the hands of a man who kept his tools sharp and in good working order.

Angel, I see NO problem with this theory. Very possible.

There is some evidence that the hatchet used (presumably the same one in the two murders) was new and therefore very sharp. After a lot of hard work, someone (may have been Catbooks) discovered that hatchets/axes were decorated with a thin strip of gilt before they left the factory in those days. Some sparkling material was seen deep in Abby's wounds after her skull was examined before the trial. This may very well have been gilt and the doctor concerned communicated with Knowlton on it. It didn't come up in the trial as the prosecution was trying desperately to prove that the old hacked ash-covered hatchet head was the weapon used.

For example: antique TH Witherby cleaver and chopping tool...total length 16 inches...were these gilt edged, too, to protect the edge?

Possibly not debbie, because, unlike axes/hatchets, meat cleavers pounded and chopped into fresh meat that cooks were preparing for the household meals. While I'm sure sparkly steak etc could have looked very attractive, I'm not so sure about the health implications!

Good point...I'm not in the mood for gilt spiced mutton...then again I'm not in the mood for any mutton! So could there have been another source of the gilt in Abby's wound that wasn't present in Andrew's, or at least not noted in Andrew's?

I suppose it depends on just how much gilt was on the hatchet. If it was thickly striped when it left the factory it's indeed odd that Andrew didn't get at least a sprinkling. On the other hand, if it was just thinly edged with gilt, then it's not strange, considering the number of blows she received, that Abby received the full benefit!

Of course in those days, as we know, there was no bothering about keeping all the evidence pristine. The authorities seem to have been convinced fairly early on that it was a hatchet wot-dun-it, but who knows if blades from several axes or hatchets were fitted into the wounds on the skulls of both victims at various stages in the months before the trial.

The wounds to Abby's head were much more forceful than perhaps all but one strike on Andrew. Those bodies and heads(!) were handled so roughly that I don't think much of that gilt business. We really should investigate the guilding process for hatchets at the time. I would not assume it was a shiny material like a gold plate. Perhaps it was a gold colored paint that preserved the edge prior to sale. There are some very dull gold paints from the time. I also don't see why the gilt couldn't have come from a hairpin in Abby's hair or something. Anything exterior on Abby's head could have been driven into her bones.

I wondered about a comb or hair clip, too, as they were often gilded. Whatever the source (the gilded hatchet blade also plausible) it wasn't noticed until Abby's head ended up like the rabbit on Fatal Attraction. I've been trying to think of other sources of gilt like a really sharp candlestick base...but then why nothing in Andrew's flesh? This might be important or it might be nothing at all.

I think a cleaver is very possible. And it's easier to hide or get rid of because it's smaller than an axe.

It might have been a meat cleaver, Snokkums, but the police seemed to think it was a hatchet. They were desperate to find something that looked as if it was the weapon. They even took something that was broken up and thickly covered in ash because they couldn't find anything else.

I thought the police combed the house (eventually perhaps) for all "sharp instruments" that could have been used. Surely they thought about meat cleavers in the kitchen? Some form of cleaver could have been used but one reason I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that one is because I thought the police considered all those things. (Was a meat cleaver ever found on top of Crowe's barn roof? )

Curryong wrote:It might have been a meat cleaver, Snokkums, but the police seemed to think it was a hatchet. They were desperate to find something that looked as if it was the weapon. They even took something that was broken up and thickly covered in ash because they couldn't find anything else.

Come to think about, I'm not sure that a meat cleaver could have done all the damage that was done to the victims. I mean, Andrew was hit so hard and multiple times that his one of his eyes came out of its' socket. That's really rough. Not sure the meat cleaver could have done all that. And Abbeys' hair piece came off she was hit hard.