Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I got to thinking early this morning. If Lizzie would have been convicted would she have survived a prison sentence? I think she would have. What do you all think? Would she survive prison or wouldn't she?

Yes, right up until they walked her to the gallows.

I don't think she would have hanged or gone to jail for a lengthy sentence. I think she would have been popped into a mental institution for a nice long stay.

snokkums wrote: I got to thinking early this morning. If Lizzie would have been convicted would she have survived a prison sentence? I think she would have. What do you all think? Would she survive prison or wouldn't she?

IF Lizzie HAD been convicted, I think her and Robinson "had an Ace up their sleeve". Just a hunch.

BOBO wrote:

snokkums wrote: I got to thinking early this morning. If Lizzie would have been convicted would she have survived a prison sentence? I think she would have. What do you all think? Would she survive prison or wouldn't she?

IF Lizzie HAD been convicted, I think her and Robinson "had an Ace up their sleeve". Just a hunch.

You think they were gonna break her outta jail and run for the Mexican border?

I vote for mental institution and I believe she was tough enough to survive jail or asylum. There is however one exception to think about. Institutions were full of TB patients so she could have contracted TB or some other disease they couldn't cure back then and subsequently died. Also if we think maybe it was her seeking prussic acid for the purpose of suicide, or if we see signs of depression in her actions right before the tragedy, might she have committed suicide if convicted?

I don't see her going to a mental hospital because there was no mention of mental illness in her defense. Usually to be sentenced to a mental hospital the defendant must use mental incapacity as a defense.

I don't know how the sentencing was done back then and in the state of Massachusetts. In the 1975/Elizabeth Montgomery movie Jennings told her: "The worst? Hanging," is what could be the outcome of her trial. I don't know if the jury would decide her sentence if they had found her guilty, or if they would have had a Penalty Phase to the trial, or if the judge would have pronounced sentencing.

They used to keep TB patients to themselves in sanitariums, so I doubt she would have been living with tuberculosis patients. And the possibility of finding her insane I think was thrown out the window during the trial, at least if an insanity defense was like it was today.

They say rich people are never found on death row. I think her defense would have gotten that somehow whittled down to maybe some time in prison - 10 years? And they probably would have found a way for her to collect her inheritance too, afterward. Emma might have just given Lizzie her half when she got out and took care of "Baby Lizzie" thru her prison years.

Would Lizzie have survived prison? I think she would have done quite well with herself. I think she would have brought in her meals from her favorite restaurants again, had a cozy but fashionable cell, all the books she wanted and maybe visiting privileges with the warden's dogs. I don't see her as being forced to associate with the other prisoners. She would probably be set up quite well and hardly realized she was in prison, except trips to Tilden-Thurber would be out.

I have read in passing that Lizzie was offered a plea bargain if she would plead guilty but insane. I'm sure she could have had a breakdown after being found guilty if necessary.

My comment about TB is actually based on other stories I have read. Most recently I read Guinn's book "Manson", a biography of Charlie. His mom & uncle went to prison in W. Virginia and the uncle got TB and died young from it. This book noted that a lot of prisoners got it. They really couldn't test for it so unless someone was noticeably ill, they could infect others. If the prison didn't care as was suggested in this book, many inmates got it. TB bacillus doesn't like ultra violet light, hence sleeping porches were an effort against the spread of TB. Locked into prison or an asylum would be excellent ground for sharing the disease.

(Some day I'm going to have a sleeping porch because I like to sleep outside all year 'round.)

It appears there would have been no choice, that had Lizzie been convicted of murder she would have gone to the hangman.


From: http://www.nodp.org/ma/s1.html
The first recorded judicial execution in Massachusetts took place in 1630, when John Billington, who had arrived on the Mayflower, was hanged at Plymouth for the murder of John Newcomen. The last executions were on May 9, 1947 when Phillip Bellino and Edward Gertson, both convicted of murdering Robert William, were electrocuted at Charlestown State Prison. In total, there have been approximately 345 executions within Massacusetts, including 26 convicted of practicing witchcraft.

Until 1951, murder in the first degree called for a mandatory punishment of death. In 1951, the law was changed to allow the jury the discretion to recommend against a death sentence after considering mitigating circumstances - in which case the sentence would be life imprisonment - unless the murder was committed in connection with a rape or attempted rape, in which case the death sentence was mandatory.



From: http://www.laurajames.com/clews/2005/07 ... the_d.html
At the time Lizzie Borden faced the death penalty for the murder of her folks in August, 1892—for hanging was the mandatory penalty for murder in Massachusetts--the conviction of a woman for murder was an idea so thoroughly foreign to Massachusetts jurisprudence that it is hard to find a prior example. To determine whether that state’s government executed any women since the debacle of the witchcraft trials exactly 200 years before Lizzie’s trial, one has to consult history books so old that the edges of the pages dissolve under the fingertips into a velvety dust.

As of 1893, the year of Miss Borden’s trial, Massachusetts had hanged only two women in the past 114 years. (Actually, they might have hanged Rachel Wall there in 1789, as some accounts give the location of Wall’s execution as Massachusetts, but she was a murderous pirate, a category of its own.)

In both of these old cases, things went quite badly. The first botched execution was in 1778 when Bathsheba Spooner, the daughter of a prominent but unpopular judge, was put to death for murder. Bathsheba and her lover desired the death of her repulsive husband. Two British soldiers happened by with such services to offer.

Unluckily for Bathsheba, the Brits later bragged about their exploits. The trial lasted one day. Given her unfortunate name, Biblical parallels were easily drawn, and they set a quick date on which she’d be publicly hanged in Worcester for her part in the affair.

Bathsheba Spooner pleaded her belly. There was considerable debate about, and examination of, same.

On one hand, her pregnancy, if true, explained her sudden need to kill old Joshua Spooner. On the other, the physical signs were apparently lacking. They decided she was lying. Bathseba immediately filed a petition to reverse the decision, stating that "I am absolutely certain of being in a pregnant state.... What I bear, and clearly perceive to be animated, is innocent of the faults of her who bears it, and has, I beg leave to say, a right to the existence which God hath begun to give it."

Her plea was denied, and they hanged Bathsheba with her co-conspirators.

Only then did they learn the devastating news that Bathsheba was, in fact, five months pregnant when the murderess and the innocent son she carried were executed. The authorities had violated one of the most ancient maxims of English and Roman law: quot praegnantis mulieris damnatae paena differatur, quoad pariat; or, if a capitally condemned woman is barely with child, she shall be executed, but if she is quick with child, execution shall be staid until she is delivered.

More than four decades passed before the state again decided to hang a woman--with even more disastrous results, as difficult as that is to imagine. In 1831, Mary Johnson, a 22-year-old servant girl, was convicted of slitting the throats of her elderly master and mistress while they lay in bed.

As they hanged her--yes, dear readers, this is the account: as she was being dropped, the actual murderer confessed to killing the old couple. So convincing was he that Mary was cut down. They set about reviving her, perhaps mindful of the tradition that says anyone who survives a hanging must be pardoned, guilty or not, but to the lasting horror of all, she was irretrievably dead.

Thus the Commonwealth had a shameful record of executing the innocent. Massachusetts’ long struggle with the death penalty had left a strong taint on capital punishment, which became not a deterrent to murder, but a deterrent to convicting a woman of murder, as some nineteenth-century acquittals showed.



From: http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/amfemhang.html

On December 6. 1638 - Dorothy Talby, was hanged in Salem, Massachusetts for the murder of her infant daughter, Difficulty. Dorothy was a strong willed, rebellious woman who had a very troubled marriage. She had been whipped for attacking her husband prior to committing murder.

On March 21, 1643 - 18 year old Mary Latham was hanged in Massachusetts alongside James Britton, for adultery, the only woman to be executed for this offence in America.

In the fall of 1648 - 32 year old Alice Martin Clarke Bishop was hanged at Plymouth, Massachusetts for stabbing to death her 4 year old daughter, Martha, an event of which she said she had no recollection of.

On June 1, 1660 - Quaker Mary Dyer was hanged from a tree in Boston, Massachusetts by the Puritans for returning from exile and for refusing to accept their religious beliefs. This despite having been reprieved the previous year. She seemed determined to be hanged. A statue of her is on Boston Commons.

During 1692 - 13 women were hanged at Salem, Massachusetts after the notorious witchcraft trials. They were:
Bridget Bishop on June 10, Rebecca Nurse, Susannah Martin, Elizabeth Howe, Sarah Good, and Sarah Wildes on July 19, Martha Carrier on August 19 and Martha Corey, Margaret Scott, Mary Easty, Alice Parker, finally Ann Pudeator and Mary Parker on September 22. They were all hanged from a tree having been taken to their execution in a cart which also served as the means of getting them suspended.

June 8, 1693 - 28 year old Elizabeth Emmerson was hanged on Boston Commons, Massachusetts for the murder of her two children who were conceived with her boyfriend. Strangely for the time, two years was to elapse between sentence and execution.

On July 17, 1701 - 21 year old Esther Rodgers was hanged at Ipswich, Massachusetts for the murder of her illegitimate child.

September 27, 1733 - Rebecca Chamblett, 27, was hanged in Massachusetts for concealing the birth/death of her baby. It must be realized that she did not necessarily murder the baby - it could well have been born dead but concealing it was still a capital crime.

On July 2, 1778 - 32 year old Bathsheba Spooner was hanged at Worcester, Massachusetts for the murder of her husband, Joshua. She attempted a defense of insanity but this was rejected. She was found to be about 5 months pregnant after her execution. Her 3 male co-defendants, Sergeant James Buchanan, Private William Brooks and her lover, Ezra Ross, were hanged with her.

October 8, 1789 - Rachel Wall was hanged for murdering a sailor. She and her husband, George, a Boston fisherman, engaged in piracy. After stealing a ship at Essex, they began pirating off of the Isle of Shoals. Pretending to be in distress, Rachel would stand on deck and cry for help. When rescuers arrived, George and his men would kill them, rob them of all valuables, and sink their ship. In 1782, George Wall drowned in a storm but Rachel was rescued. She returned to Boston where she continued to steal from the cabins of ships docked in Boston Harbor. She was accused and convicted of murdering a sailor - a crime that she denied. At her hanging, she confessed to being a pirate. She is the only known woman pirate of New England.

In the 17th and 18th centuries both men and women were hanged as a matter of course for murder and other serious offences, unfortunately. There were no longterm prisons built until the 19th century, and the law demanded the extreme penalty.

WOW, Debbie, the information you posted above regarding the executions which took place in the state of Massachusetts is not only interesting, it’s intriguing! Thank you for posting this information.

I agree with you, since hanging was the mandatory penalty for murder in Massachusetts at the time of Lizzie’s trial, there would have been no other option but to hang her.

Victoria Lincoln mentioned in passing the poisoning case for which Sarah Jane Robinson was convicted~like Robinson wasn't hanged so Lizzie probably wouldn't have been. I never could find info on Robinson till I got the internet but finally did and rather figured her crimes were a great deal worse than had Lizzie been found guilty of murdering her parents. That's kind of where my mind got stuck and I am not awake enough to check back on that matter at the moment.

It is also very possible everyone involved in the Lizzie case could look like they were doing their utmost by charging her with a hanging offense, knowing they could put her through hell, air every little dirty detail then turn her loose to the judgement of society. They weren't stupid and laws can always be tweaked for certain desired outcomes.

I have a question, my fellows!

If a defendant was convicted, but immediately someone present in the court comes up to say: "No, you are wrong, the real guilty is me. Here are my proves." And if his proves are convincing, what would happen by the American law?

Thanks!

Franz: At this time in America nothing would change until an investigation was completed. So the confessor would be questioned. If there was probable cause he/she would be arrested and charged. The one convicted might be let out on bail or own recognizance pending trial/disposition of confessor. There would not be an instant resolution. There have been some cases where a man has done many years in prison and DNA completely exonerates him. Even so he is not immediately released until some procedures are followed.

You can understand the reasoning in that a family member for instance could make an ultimate sacrifice to save a loved one by blurting out a quick confession. Things like this have happened.

Irena, I recently bought the new book on Charles Manson too but have not read it yet.

I think you're right - being put in a real crowded place and maybe not having the best sanitation, I'd think one could contract TB from so-far undiagnosed victims. I think Miss Lizzie would have been given a cell to herself, away from the others, tho. Like the jailed guys in "Goodfellas" and Al Capone, folks that could afford it lived in remarkable conditions.

Thank you, Debbie, for your post. Totally fascinating. (Laura James's site is great.)

I have read that if Lizzie got the death penalty, she would have gotten the electric chair. (Sorry, I cannot remember the source.)

I had never thought of Lizzie committing suicide. I think she was quite strong-willed and it never crossed my mind. But if it were the night before the execution and that was a sure thing, she might have.

The electric chair was introduced into Ohio (1897) several years after New York, which was the first State to use it. Massachusetts got the chair in 1900, New Jersey in 1906 and Virginia in 1908. (This is according to Wiki, and yes I know, but I'll check it against other sources!) First use in Mass. was 17th December 1901, according to another web site, The Electric Chair. Hanging was apparently very unscientific! In the UK what was known as the Long Drop was introduced, which was based on the height and weight of the condemned person. In the US more primitive methods from earlier times were used apparently, and the victims often were often slowly strangled. So more 'humane' and efficient methods were sought out by the Governor of New York in the late 1880's.

Interesting info, Curryong. Thanks for posting. I wonder how people figure Lizzie would have/could have gotten The Chair then. ... It woulda made a good headline: ISN'T IT SHOCKING?! Lizzie gets The Chair!

As an interesting aside, I knew a man who was present at the first electrocution at Sing Sing. He was very old and very sweet. He would not tell me details but said he would never watch an execution again.

irina wrote:Franz: At this time in America nothing would change until an investigation was completed. So the confessor would be questioned. If there was probable cause he/she would be arrested and charged. The one convicted might be let out on bail or own recognizance pending trial/disposition of confessor. There would not be an instant resolution. There have been some cases where a man has done many years in prison and DNA completely exonerates him. Even so he is not immediately released until some procedures are followed.

You can understand the reasoning in that a family member for instance could make an ultimate sacrifice to save a loved one by blurting out a quick confession. Things like this have happened.

Thank you Irina.

irina wrote:Victoria Lincoln mentioned in passing the poisoning case for which Sarah Jane Robinson was convicted~like Robinson wasn't hanged so Lizzie probably wouldn't have been. I never could find info on Robinson till I got the internet but finally did and rather figured her crimes were a great deal worse than had Lizzie been found guilty of murdering her parents. That's kind of where my mind got stuck and I am not awake enough to check back on that matter at the moment.

It is also very possible everyone involved in the Lizzie case could look like they were doing their utmost by charging her with a hanging offense, knowing they could put her through hell, air every little dirty detail then turn her loose to the judgement of society. They weren't stupid and laws can always be tweaked for certain desired outcomes.

Sarah Jane Robinson was sentenced to hang on November 16, 1888. By the end of October, public sentiment had turned in Mrs. Robinson’s favor and a petition to commute her sentence to life in prison was submitted to Governor Ames. Among the five hundred signers were seventy-six ministers and seven members of the jury that convicted her. On November 15 the governor commuted Mrs. Robinson’s sentence to life in solitary confinement. Eighteen years later she died in prison at the age of 67.

Lizzie would've hanged unless public sentiment and the Governor said otherwise. Otherwise she would've spent life in solitary confinement. I don't think prison would've been easy for her; prisons of that era were brutal places and there wouldn't be a lot of sympathy for a parricidal hatchet murderess, plus I'm not sure Lizzie was capable of playing nice in the sandbox. There's a huge difference between being jailed locally while awaiting trial and being convicted of the crime and turned over the state prison officials.

The Robinson case is interesting because her first trial prohibited evidence of a previous poisoning, sort of similar to the prussic acid testimony being ruled inadmissible. That jury could not agree, but the next one hearing the case on four more murders did agree. And then a majority appear to have changed their minds.

You do wonder, though, what influence ex Governor Robinson and Borden money, plus the women's and temperance movement, would have in Lizzie's case, however. I might be cynical, but I do believe an arrangement might well have been made and she could have ended in a mental facility rather than prison. If a prison doctor, plus a couple of alienists (as psychiatrists were known in those days) could be persuaded to play ball, in that the prisoner's mental condition had greatly deteriorated since her conviction, and before her appeal, the Governor would have intervened.

If nothing else, Lizzie Borden was a survivor.