Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Now I am done with reading Browns book “The legend, the truth, the final chapter”. A quite interesting book I have to say.

Brown writes really well and has some very interesting things about the case. But the same Brown asks a lot from the reader. He has no evidence that William is Andrews’s son at all. And even if he had, he still has no evidence that William was on Second Street 4 august 1892.
All that Brown has to show for is really to storys from two very old people. Almost every thing gets better as the year’s goes by, so does storys.
So what Brown calls the final chapter gives us a hell of an interesting story, but does not give us any reason to believe it.

But Brown does something’s very well. Knowltons question to Lizzie at the inquest is strange indeed. But I don’t really believe Brown’s giant conspiracy. Everyone in it seams so smart, when Andrew cut the head of the birds – then both William and Lizzie knows it's a warning to them. When William breaks in on Second Street Andrew knows it's a warning him (and why would Lizzie be ready to take the blame?). When Knowington asks weird questions to Lizzie and Morse, they both know that he is black mailing them and so on.

Another thing I have problems with is Williams’s childhood. I can’t really see a boy sitting and talk with a hatchet, the same hatchet that will be the murder weapon later on. Sounds like a bad horror movie to me.

Not to talk about what a so giant conspiracy would cost Lizzie. She would be bankrupt after the trail.

But credit to Brown when he points out that Morse dose NOT have an alibi for Abbys death. In the case of Morse leaving in the morning; he or Maggie + Lizzie must tell us a lie… And what is the reason to lie about that?

(thans to Nancie once more)

You may now expect a lot of replies from Ray, whose area of expertise this is!

edit

It's a shame that Ray isnt here yet.

I have to say that the book was better than I expected. And I could buy the story if it wasn´t just for that we don´t know who Williams father was, and we don´t know were he was 4 aug 1892.
But, if I was Brown and run into this story, I would probely belive in it and think that this is the truth and the final chapter as well.

By the way, my mother asked if she could borrow Browns book from me. I was glad that she was intrested in Lizzie, but Browns book is not the fist book one should read about the Lizzie case.
So I gave her Edwin Porters book to start with.

edit

Hi Jimmy! I think your assessment of Brown's book
is very good. Morse didn't have an alibi for Abby's
murder and the possibility of 2 murderers is what I
have been thinking lately. You are smart to give your Mother a different book to get started with!

I first read Brown a little over a year ago, because it was the only Lizzie book on the shelf at the library when I was looking.

I found the theory interesting and it was pretty well written. Then towards the end, the whole thing just seemed to fall apart. I have read parts of it again since, with a much more critical eye, and after having read a lot more of the primary sources. I discovered that Brown created scenes that had no basis in verifiable fact and manipulated other "facts" to suit his theory. Since he never proved William was Andrew's son and never showed William was anywhere in Fall River on August 4, the whole theory is built on nothing. We've discussed other particulars in other threads.

As far as I can tell, Ray is the only one around who seems to accept Brown's theory without question.

I think Brown was a pretty good writer. I hear Pete Peterson thinks Brown changed the story from the letters. It ended up not the same story as he had collaborated upon.
The Gordon Reed letter in the Knowlton Papers pretty much sounds like Brown's book. Do you have access to that, Jimmy?

Have you read Fritz?
His solution is more plausible.
Jeffery had a plausible story as well, like Fritz's but without the incest.

This is a post from Ray made at the "old" forum this morning:

"I guess the lock on this topic says its time to say goodbye to all.
I never expected to stay so long. Last year when I mentioned I would be cutting back, I was attacked by two people (Kat and BobG).

I figured the next time there would be no announcement. And here it is! I once used to shop at a supermarket. They closed down due to a relocation. The new place was miles away, and it wasn't worth the trip when I found the close place had the same item for less money."

It seems as though he might not be joining us here. . .

edit

Kat @ 0000-00-00 wrote:Would you like the Gorden Reed letter moved here or do you have it, Jimmy?

Give it to my e-maile

And thanks!!!

Okay. Done.

Does anybody else need it again?

kat:

i think i've seen it but i don't "have" it. if it's no trouble....

I would usually share with everyone, especially as it can be found in archive.
So I will post it here.

(Hi Eugene!)

From: The Knowlton Papers.

(I call this the "Gordon Bordon letter").

"HK012
Letter, handwritten in ink.

HOTEL KENMORE

Albany N.Y. Aug 12 1892

District Atty. Knowlton
Fall River, Mass.

Dear Sir:-
Feeling quite safe from all possible arrest, I write you This information
regarding the Fall River Mystery. The Killing of old man Bordon and his
wife was not perportrated by any immediate member of his family as is
generally supposed. But They were put out of the way By an illgitimate
Son whom Bordon refused to recognize after the Mother of his off-spring
died a number of years ago in a certain Mass. Insane Asylum of a Broken
heart. That son is now twenty five years of age. He was not known to any
member of the family save the old man and woman. When that sons
Mother was sent to the asylum through Bordon, the Son was put in a New
York Orphan Asylum. When he was subsequently bound out to a farmer.
When he reached his age he left the farmer and went to Bordon and
demanded recognition and some sort of an understanding. We mutually
agreed to a certain contract part orally & part written. What the contract
was does not matter here more than to say - He was to be educated at his,
Bordons expense. Allowed a certain sum of money a year and when com-
pleted course preparatory to College was to be paid a final sum of $5,000
to commence life with and then they were quits. Through the influence
of his Wife who disliked the said son because he once insulted her when
she made a stinging remark regarding that sons mother in his presence
was persuaded to renounce his obligations & promises after he had partly
filled them. The son repeatedly thereafter tried to induce Bordon to
carry out his agreement as he was abundently able to do so. He wouldn't
listen. So to make a long story short the son Brooded over his and his
mothers past troubles and resolved upon Vengeance, with the result
known to all. One point More Lizzie Bordon my half sister may have
heard of me and it is to shield her fathers infamy and good name that she
is taking the course she has so nobly with stood. The girl is entirely inno-
cent and it is only that justice may be done her that I write this otherwise I
would not have written this for I fairly hate the Bordon name.

The instrument the deed was done with was a Lathers Hatchet and was
droped over board from a Fall River steamer at the Dock. Entrance to the
House was gained by a front window afterwards fastened egress by side
window. The time of Revenge about 11:45 I think.

And the illigitimate who took the revenge is the Writer of this confes-
sion. No use to track me for it will be an utter impossibilty to do so. At the
hour this letter is mailed I shall take a train for hundreds of miles away.

Yours Truly
Phillip Gordon Reed"

Interesting that A) he couldn't spell the family name B) he was born after Andrew had married Abby C) he remembered the time wrong D) he felt the need to climb in and out windows.

Yaknow... this Reed fellow makes the Trickey-McHenry business seem like a church picnic in a way.

This letter smacks of the false confessional tone that all investigators have to weed through (and, sadly, waste time over) in high profile cases to this day. Here's an ironic thought: what if it actually came from a still-crazy-after-all-these-years William, who imagined himself to be bastard son and killer? The dates could be just part of his muddled mind.

--Lyddie

Which windows would that be?
A front window would be the parlour? And the parlour was kept locked. So if he entered there (7 feet off the ground) he'd be locked in unless someone in the house was expecting him- and if they were, why not the cellar door?

He says he left by a side window. If he exited immediately after killing Andrew, that would be the Kelly side, sitting room window, or a kitchen window? If the kitchen, he'd not be leaving immediately- he'd have to move to another room...

Kat @ Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:11 am wrote:From: The Knowlton Papers.

(I call this the "Gordon Bordon letter").

"HK012
Letter, handwritten in ink.

HOTEL KENMORE

Albany N.Y. Aug 12 1892

District Atty. Knowlton
Fall River, Mass.

Dear Sir:-
Feeling quite safe from all possible arrest, I write you This information
regarding the Fall River Mystery. The Killing of old man Bordon and his
wife was not perportrated by any immediate member of his family as is
generally supposed. But They were put out of the way By an illgitimate
Son whom Bordon refused to recognize after the Mother of his off-spring
died a number of years ago in a certain Mass. Insane Asylum of a Broken
heart. That son is now twenty five years of age. He was not known to any
member of the family save the old man and woman. When that sons
Mother was sent to the asylum through Bordon, the Son was put in a New
York Orphan Asylum. When he was subsequently bound out to a farmer.
When he reached his age he left the farmer and went to Bordon and
demanded recognition and some sort of an understanding. We mutually
agreed to a certain contract part orally & part written. What the contract
was does not matter here more than to say - He was to be educated at his,
Bordons expense. Allowed a certain sum of money a year and when com-
pleted course preparatory to College was to be paid a final sum of $5,000
to commence life with and then they were quits. Through the influence
of his Wife who disliked the said son because he once insulted her when
she made a stinging remark regarding that sons mother in his presence
was persuaded to renounce his obligations & promises after he had partly
filled them. The son repeatedly thereafter tried to induce Bordon to
carry out his agreement as he was abundently able to do so. He wouldn't
listen. So to make a long story short the son Brooded over his and his
mothers past troubles and resolved upon Vengeance, with the result
known to all. One point More Lizzie Bordon my half sister may have
heard of me and it is to shield her fathers infamy and good name that she
is taking the course she has so nobly with stood. The girl is entirely inno-
cent and it is only that justice may be done her that I write this otherwise I
would not have written this for I fairly hate the Bordon name.

The instrument the deed was done with was a Lathers Hatchet and was
droped over board from a Fall River steamer at the Dock. Entrance to the
House was gained by a front window afterwards fastened egress by side
window. The time of Revenge about 11:45 I think.

And the illigitimate who took the revenge is the Writer of this confes-
sion. No use to track me for it will be an utter impossibilty to do so. At the
hour this letter is mailed I shall take a train for hundreds of miles away.

Yours Truly
Phillip Gordon Reed"

I doubt it could have been a Lather's hatchet since the length of the cutting edge is too short to have inflicted some of those wounds. The cutting edge of that type of hatched is about 1 3/4" to 2". The hatchet is also extreamly light in weight. You might have to get a running start to inflict much damage.

The writing style seems a little too good to have been penned by a guy who was supposed to be half off his conk. But you would at least think he could spell his own sisters name right, "Lizzie Bordon my half sister..."

Maybe I missed something.

-1bigsteve (o:

Jimmy S. Windeskog @ Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:51 am wrote:Now I am done with reading Browns book “The legend, the truth, the final chapter”. A quite interesting book I have to say.

Brown writes really well and has some very interesting things about the case. But the same Brown asks a lot from the reader. He has no evidence that William is Andrews’s son at all. And even if he had, he still has no evidence that William was on Second Street 4 august 1892.
All that Brown has to show for is really to storys from two very old people. Almost every thing gets better as the year’s goes by, so does storys.
So what Brown calls the final chapter gives us a hell of an interesting story, but does not give us any reason to believe it.

But Brown does something’s very well. Knowltons question to Lizzie at the inquest is strange indeed. But I don’t really believe Brown’s giant conspiracy. Everyone in it seams so smart, when Andrew cut the head of the birds – then both William and Lizzie knows it's a warning to them. When William breaks in on Second Street Andrew knows it's a warning him (and why would Lizzie be ready to take the blame?). When Knowington asks weird questions to Lizzie and Morse, they both know that he is black mailing them and so on.

Another thing I have problems with is Williams’s childhood. I can’t really see a boy sitting and talk with a hatchet, the same hatchet that will be the murder weapon later on. Sounds like a bad horror movie to me.

Not to talk about what a so giant conspiracy would cost Lizzie. She would be bankrupt after the trail.

But credit to Brown when he points out that Morse dose NOT have an alibi for Abbys death. In the case of Morse leaving in the morning; he or Maggie + Lizzie must tell us a lie… And what is the reason to lie about that?

(thans to Nancie once more)

You took the words right out of my mouth, Jimmy. Bravo!

-1bigsteve (o:

FairhavenGuy @ Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:45 pm wrote:Interesting that A) he couldn't spell the family name B) he was born after Andrew had married Abby C) he remembered the time wrong D) he felt the need to climb in and out windows.

You are taking that letter at face value, literally, rather than symbolically.
It is a letter that casts suspicion elsewhere. The misspelling of the 'Bordon' name is obvious; that letter writer could honestly claim that he never wrote an letter about "Borden". Very clever trick!
Arnold Brown suggests (?) that it was written by Joseph Carpenter, who must have felt sorry for Lizzie's predicament.

There were other reasons that made me drop out for 18 months. I think my reading more educated me better to address this topic.

PS I think the mixture of false facts (escape by a window, which could be a cellar window) is one way to present the truth in such as way as it could be rejected. "My conscience is OK because I told what I knew, but disguised the story so it couldn't be back tracked to me." IMO[/b]

Jimmy S. Windeskog @ Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:51 am wrote:Now I am done with reading Browns book “The legend, the truth, the final chapter”. A quite interesting book I have to say.
...
So what Brown calls the final chapter gives us a hell of an interesting story, but does not give us any reason to believe it.
...

Here is the reason to believe it: it bests explained the mysteries of Lizzie's action in not telling what she knew (she didn't do it), and, the actions of the local government or ruling class in freeing her.

Many said Lizzie dunnit and paid off officials to be found not guilty. Brown argues correctly that Lizzie didn't do it, and paid the officials to be ckeared of the crime.

While it is possible a judge & prosecutor could be bought of, I think its more likely if they knew the defendant was not guilty of the murder.
PS
If I remember correctly, Morse does have an alibi for Abby's murder. He left the house before Andy, and nobody then has accused him of doubling back to kill Abby. Or have I missed some book? (I wasn't there.)