Lizzie Borden Society Forum

There are a few things which people always assume when they start to decipher this crime:

1. Abby died before Andrew. From many doctors that I have talked to, they state it is a very inaccurate way to determine the time of death.
2. Solo operation: I have read many theories, most blaming Lizzie while some blaming the rest. However, I have not read much about a joint effort theory . I personally believe Lizzie, Emma and Bridget all were involved. John Morse may have become a catalyst or a convenience given that his presence would make him a prime suspect to start with. Emma was to inherit, she creates a strong alibi. Lizzie was all over the place but had to take Emma into confidence to be sure she gets a part of inheritance. Emma also decides to pay for half of legal expenses. Umm, Why so? Was it love? Or was she afraid that the trail might make her the suspect. Bridget had no direct motivation, but she could have easily been paid off. Even if we believe she was not involved, she outlived others and decided not to spill the beans for the rest of her life. I wonder why? Was it loyalty, or spilling of beans would have bought a lot of disgrace for her personally. Also, no women post-Sarah in that house, ever ended up bearing kids. Was that a choice, if yes, why did all decide not to have kids? Or was it something fiendish we are not aware of? In my books, it was definitely not a solo operation, unless someone was trying out their luck, and it worked!

3.Andrew took a nap. I am personally not convinced of him taking a nap. Lizzie mentions she helped him out of his shoes, but he was wearing his shoes when he died. Also, his body position is disturbing. It appears to me like he fell on the couch than sleeping in the first place.

If you ask me, I don't want to trust anything Bridget and Lizzie said of what had supposedly happened between 9:00am to 11:15am that morning. If Bridget was not speaking the truth, she definitely was a better liar than Lizzie. I personally do believe that both murders took place in a short period of time. Andrew must have died soon after he got home than closer to 11:10 when the murder was discovered.

I look for your responses and other Assumptions which change how we perceive this crime.

I'm unclear about no kids post Sarah. Abby married Andrew at about age 37. Many women's biological clocks run out before then. Emma and Lizzie hardly seem to have had gentleman friends and in those days, no marriage would pretty much mean no kids. There are rumours that Lizzie had had an abortion but that's pretty spurious and unproven.

I don't think the murders were a group action, but that's the way I feel about it. Other people believe various combinations of actors in murder. Of all of them Emma always seemed a bit sinister to me. What little we know of her always seemed a little odd but that need not mean anything.

Bridget seemed to me to be genuinely grieving for Abby. She also had the most to lose by being involved because I doubt a jury would have thought deeply about convicting and hanging her since she was an Irish maid. I don't see a consciousness of guilt in her actions before or after. That she never spoke of the happenings is more in keeping with good manners of the times. Some things were never discussed, ever, period. (How I wish I knew something about a relative of mine who had agonizing dental work in the 1960s, and had a complete and permanent "nervous breakdown" from which she never recovered. Politeness forbade this to be discussed even within the family. Since I have horrendous facial neuralgia I wish I knew more but "nervous breakdown" was only whispered, literally. I am quite sure had there been something like a murder in the family it would never have been mentioned.)

Some of the old newspapers I love have said that Andrew was in his stocking feet but his shoes were put on for the pictures because he was one of Fall River's leading citizens and needed his dignity. I wouldn't think much of the report but there is a picture of his body in stocking feet in an old paper. In those days the actual photographs could not be reproduced so there was a process for an artist to reproduce pictures with pen and ink. The picture looks authentic and Andrew has only socks on his feet.

I too question Andrew's position and the time frame has always severely bothered me. SO MUCH happened in the short time after he arrived home and was killed. Did he have time to fall asleep? I rather think not. But when I consider if he was initially struck sitting up and awake, I have to think of what I think is considered the first, horrendous blow to Andrew's cheek. He almost had to be lying down to some extent though not necessarily asleep IMO.

I really think the killer was from outside the home but have no idea who or why. Whoever did the actual killing was an individual who was VERY angry. As Debbie points out, both victims were depersonalized due to blows to the head and face. The actual killing was not a group activity. Whoever swung the hatchet was individually extremely angry, even if the motive could have been a group activity IMO.

Thanks for your comment Irina! On the points that you covered:

1. Kids: I am not sure if 37 was too told to have kids. I know of some women bearing kids at 40. It might be unusual, but it did happen in those days. When I referred to none, it included Bridget. Lizzie and Emma, may not be resourceful, but definitely attractive enough to attract men. Emma chooses to confine herself to a small room all day, and Lizzie even at 33, should have had her chances to find a man if she wanted one (could have moved to Europe or Canada to start off a new life under an alias). Beyond these two, Bridget too decides not to have kids. Maybe I got a bias toward's Debbie's theory of some sort of sexual relationship shared by Andrew with all of them. It definitely is another addition to many perceived coincidences in this criminal case , that none of them bear children.

2. Group Conspiracy: I truly believe Emma is the crux of most of the trouble in that house and she planned it all. She probably brainwashed Lizzie to develop a dislike for Abby. Based on her own testimony, she disliked the property being given away to Abby's step-sister more than anyone else. She always addressed her as Abby. Lizzie only later started addressing her as Mrs. Borden; in my eyes, relatively more respectful than addressing her as Abby. Emma was the one who would inherit the estate, not Lizzie. If it was Lizzie's impromptu action, which I doubt, it was another coincidence that Emma was off for a "rare personal trip". If Lizzie planned it, I would assume she would appreciate Emma's presence than lack of it. And if Emma knew of it, she did the right thing by keeping distance from it. One can only imagine what would be conjectured if Emma too was present in the Borden house that day. Emma was no dummy (Later in life, Emma had shown more prudence dealing with investments than Lizzie. I can't source it, but I read it someplace). As far as Bridget is concerned, the killer would be real lucky to have escaped the eyes and ears of Bridget given her proximity to the house. If Lizzie had the best opportunity to kill, Bridget had the best opportunity to figure it all out. As far as a killer is concerned, I was of an opinion initially that he/she was hired. But I read it someplace that with so many people around the house, none saw anyone coming in and out of the house all morning.

3. Andrew's death: I did not know of shoes being put on his body after death. Assuming it was true, for anyone who helped him get into the shoes, would have prefer his leg up in the air than on the ground. Positioning of his legs and body trouble me. Shoes or lack of it is not a concern. As far as time frame is concerned, I believe a lot happened between the moment Bridget got back in the house till Andrew got killed. We will never know the sequence of events. Uncle Morse's discussions with Andrew became a catalyst for the kill to have taken place then, in the middle of the day.

4. Number of blows: Another reason I believe it had to be someone very close to the ones who got murdered is the number of blows and the attack on their face. It was someone, who got irritated by looking at faces of Abby & Andrew. Their faces reminded them of everything they did to them; everything wrong that the killer was subjected to. Both must have managed to do something very terrible to deserve it. It was a crime of passion, an act of releasing frustrations which had culminated over a long period of time.

Many women did have babies into their forties in those days of large families. However, a first baby when you were approaching 40 was rather unusual. Abby obviously had low fertility. Actually, Andrew probably wasn't overly fertile himself. Three children in 18 years of marriage, with the first born five and a half years after the wedding, wasn't the typical mid 19th century family.

I'm not medically trained but Possum is. He explained in several threads why it was reasonably sure that Abby died about an hour and a half before Andrew. Both Bowen and Dolan were very experienced doctors and would have known whether a person was newly dead or not.

The last independent person to see Abby alive was John Morse. She disappeared, he testified, into the front hall or lobby at before 8:45am. When he went to get his hat from the hall stand there, there was no sign of Abby. The inference is that she must have gone upstairs to fumigate er, make his bed and tidy the bedroom.

In fact Lizzie said, in one of her first witness statements to police that she had noticed Abby in the guest room as she went down to breakfast. (She later changed this to a later conversation downstairs with Abby about the non-existent note and meat for dinner. This is a conversation I don't believe occurred.) I think Abby remained fussing about with the guest room upstairs after Andrew left, and in fact never left it alive.

Bridget remained quite poor all her life. No evidence of a pay-off, no evidence she ever went back to Ireland. The Borden lawyer was asked about Bridget just after the trial and said there had been no contact between Bridget and the sisters since she'd left just after the murders.

She married quite late so that might be the cause of her not having children. Contraception was very primitive in those days. There would have been few people for whom childlessness was a conscious choice.

Emma and Lizzie never had gentleman callers before Andrew's death or after it. Not every woman wants to marry and have children.

Emma wouldn't have been the sole heir. Lizzie was Andrew's heir too, as his daughter. The main objection I have to Emma being in some plot is her feeling of motherly responsibility towards Lizzie. If she had been involved there is no way known that she would have allowed her 'child' to rot for nearly a year in jail, with the threat of being hanged after a very public trial. Yes, Emma was an enigmatic person but that doesn't mean she was a murderer.

Andrew does look very awkward but the bodies of both he and Abby were moved at various times. So was the furniture. Dr Bowen testified that when he first saw Andrew he seemed to be lying a little lower than in the photograph.

Some women are more fertile than others. My family has a low birth rate. I have no children. Back in those days marriage and motherhood was way more serious than it is today. Many young women died in childbirth and some women were too frightened of this to marry and risk it. Husband wife relationships were different too. Now women have the ability to work, get educations, have activities, etc. Then they didn't very much. Marriage could be giving up all personal desires, hopes and wishes. If Lizzie and Emma didn't grow up in a happy marriage why would they want what their parents had? Divorce was also frowned upon if marriages were unhappy. Various posters say that spinsterhood was not a disgrace in New England. If it was an honorable conscious choice, then it is no different than a woman getting an education inj those days, such as did Marie Curie who initially chose science over marriage in a society that did not value that.

I would assume Bridget as a Catholic would be open to marriage and kids but it is possible that she grew up around large, starving, struggling Irish Catholic families in Ireland and the whole thing didn't appeal to her.

I always felt Emma was sinister but that is unfair. I just don't feel warm and fuzzy about anything she ever did. If she was accused of the murders I would be more open to the idea of her guilt. I figure when Abby came into the home she displaced Emma as the woman of the house and the mother of younger sister Lizzie. I also blame Emma for the unhappiness and unrest with Abby. Perhaps Lizzie was a pawn of Emma. In reality Emma never did anything that I should feel this way, but I can't help it.

Even into the early 1900s women had few choices. Rose Kennedy in her autobiography said she wanted more education but it was not allowed so she married and had nine kids. Perhaps Lizzie was fortunate that she could choose spinsterhood, or that she was content with that if she was.

We really need to know a lot more about Lizzie and Emma's private lives. What DID they do all day, every day, year after year. We are missing something somewhere.

I do think that Emma filled Lizzie's mind with hatred of Abby. I think it started as soon as it appeared that Abby and Lizzie might have have a chance of becoming fond of each other (while Emma was away at school) and continued on until Abby's death. The spinster Emma wasn't going to have anyone replacing her as Lizzie's surrogate mother. While it might be understandable as Emma lived such a dull and empty existence, I think it was a reprehensible way to behave.

I think they spent some weeks at the Swansea farm in the summer with Abby and Andrew before the quarrel. There were the Gardiner cousins that Emma in particular was fond of and they may well have paid short visits there.

In Rebello Page 11

The Central Congregational Church is always having new recruits. On one of these occasions Lizzie Borden joined the Church. That was in 1885. Lizzie Borden, the church member, devoted herself to Sunday School and other work with great constancy. She was a figure in every department of church activity. All the allied societies of the Central Church-temperance, benevolence, social, etc -found her an interested member and one who was always at hand.

She also taught Sunday School at the Central Mission Sabbath School at the corner of Pleasant and Sixth Streets, where the Rev Buck was a missionary.

Not sure when Lizzie started teaching Sunday School, but Andrew's was a temperance household and Lizzie and Emma would have 'taken the Pledge' quite early I would think. It's forgotten now how huge and influential the temperance movement was in the 19th century, especially in the US. There would have been social activities connected to the local branch, concerts, suppers, picnics etc.

Both sisters apparently enjoyed reading, there would have been constant sewing, mending, going on from childhood. Both sisters probably knew how to ride horses (at least Emma did) and there was a livery stables close by. Then there would have been the occasional visit to Boston, New York, Rhode Island, a concert and ball every now and again.

Lizzie played the piano and probably practised in the parlour. There were there little domestic duties too. A very dull and unfulfilled life by our standards, but considered quite standard for unmarried daughters then.

Mmmm interesting that you mention Emma knew to horse ride. Distance today between Fair Haven and Fall River is 16miles approximately. Using google, I found out the following:

1. Horse Gallops at 25-30mph
2. Canters at 12-15mph
3. Walks at 4mph
4. Trots at 8-12mph

Given this fact, does open up many possibilities for Emma. However, chances of it being true are remote.

Emma wasn't staying with a lot of people who, like people on holiday today, go here there and everywhere, and nobody knows where they are at any particular time. Typical Emma, she was holidaying at the house of an old lady and her middleaged unmarried daughter, a dressmaker. I agree, she could have ridden there and back in the time, though hanging about between murders and getting back after Andrew's murder and before the telegram arrived at the Brownells' house in Fairhaven (Fairhaven didn't have a telegraph office at the time) might have been a wee problem.

It reminds me of my unmarried aunt whose vacation every year was a couple weeks at my parents' home. It was a sweet time. We talked, played Canasta (card game), board games, worked jigsaw puzzles, took walks, did things as a family. My family if very small & we lived way out so company was a treat. My aunt had a job and worked the rest of the year. Not sure how it would have been if all there was to do ever, was this sort of thing. Maybe Lizzie DID fill her time with church activities. She liked fine clothes and if church was her main activity, it makes me wonder what kind of church it was, I mean there are or were churches that were more interested in appearances than the gospel. Sometimes I think her church was like this.

Oh my goodness, Irina, my family used to play Canasta when I was in my twenties and went home for a visit!!! I haven't thought about that card game in years. You brought back many pleasant memories with that one word! Thank you!

A really fun game, Canasta.

Yes, Canasta is great fun!

You never hear of the Bordens playing cards of an evening. Maybe, as a temperance household, they felt that playing cards was pandering to the devil and all his works. When I was a young teenager and living at my aunt's house in Norfolk I joined a Methodist youth group and then the church. The minister never actually preached against it but I can remember some fuss about a lottery once. Many elderly members of the church held to solid Methodist principles, no alcohol, no card playing for money, no betting on horses, dogs, lotteries or anything else. I have a feeling that many Protestant Churches in the US in the 19th century were like that.

Probably in stricter households there was less opportunity to wear fine clothes, except at Church and in church activities. Many couples met at choir practice, Church concerts, picnics etc. While, at 32, meeting a potential husband might not have been the primary thought in Lizzie's mind, in a rather dull life, Church activities may have been her only opportunity to wear new, smart clothes.

(By the 1890's young women were beginning to join mixed bicycle clubs and visit beauty spots, sometimes taking cameras and a picnic. However cycling with young men you weren't related to was still considered rather daring and I don't think Lizzie would have been interested. I've often wondered why she didn't join an amateur dramatics group but perhaps there wasn't one in Fall River, and appearing on the stage would have been considered rather shocking, I suppose.)

Theodore Roosevelt met his first wife Alice when he was walking in the country while he was a student at Harvard. Alice was one year different in age from Lizzie and from a family that was social. Teddy wasn't considered a great catch because he was socially awkward among other things. I don't know how far Harvard is from Fall River but Massachusetts isn't that big. Lizzie didn't have the opportunities to meet young Harvard students I suppose. But think about it...what if she had worked to snag a Harvard student for a husband? Perhaps she could have been First Lady.

Lizzie Borden, First Lady!!!

It's a little over 59 miles between the two places. Maybe a few Harvard graduates could have been on a walking holiday. Lizzie could have then laid in wait for them --er --sat with sketching pad in hand and wearing one of her favourite blue dresses. Perhaps she could have had a few bottles of delicious lemonade nearby? So many missed opportunities!

Seduction by mutton broth.....

No, she could have repelled the ones she didn't like by offering them that...'smile'!

Teddy Roosevelt was quite athletic in order to control his asthma and other health issues. He could have done it! Lizzie Borden for First Lady!

I wonder whether they would have had children? Off-topic here, but Teddy's much adored first wife Alice died early, leaving one daughter. I don't think TR's second wife Edith was always pleasant to Alice jnr., belittling her dead mother etc., and Alice craved her father's attention which he often was unable to give. As a consequence Alice grew up quite wild.

If Lizzie had married it's debatable as to how much that rather bleak New England upbringing that she received would have affected her. I think she would have been rather a strict mother.

Curryong wrote:I wonder whether they would have had children? Off-topic here, but Teddy's much adored first wife Alice died early, leaving one daughter. I don't think TR's second wife Edith was always pleasant to Alice jnr., belittling her dead mother etc., and Alice craved her father's attention which he often was unable to give. As a consequence Alice grew up quite wild.

If Lizzie had married it's debatable as to how much that rather bleak New England upbringing that she received would have affected her. I think she would have been rather a strict mother.

Yes, Lizzie might not have been the most affectionate parent. Then, in about 2100, her great-x grandchild would vaporize his or her parents with a laser drone.

Edith Roosevelt had known TR since they were kids. I think her feelings about Alice Hathaway Lee were that Alice wasn't intellectual enough to have been a good partner for TR over the long run. Edith was the more modern type. I think all the kids ran wild and roller skated in the White House. Alice Longworth was famous for saying, "If you don't have anything good to say about someone, come and sit by me."

Going WAY BACK to earlier posts on this thread there was the suggestion that Emma could have been physically involved in the murder of her parents. Looking over the years of threads on this forum I'm surprised that this theory comes up again and again.

I think there's something about Emma that almost repels people, or they're puzzled by her. I admit, except for her obsessive love for her sister, I can't get a handle on her personality either. She seems drab, repressed and in some situations, under Lizzie's thumb.

Thanks for bringing that up Curryong!

I personally do believe Emma's role in that household, prior to the murders was perceived to be undermined as curious souls tried to shed more light on Lizzie's personality. We don't have any facts to go by to paint Emma's personality. However, I would like all of you to consider the following points on Emma which makes me believe she was not as docile and naive ol' sister as many perceive her to be:

1. Adamant: Emma is the girl who was headstrong/adamant to refrain from acknowledging Abby's presence in that house since her early teens.
2. Tenacious: Emma is the girl who guided a 3yr old Lizzie develop hatred for her step mother.
3. Planner: It definitely is not easy for a teen to stand up against her parents to essentially influence her sister to hate one/both of them. Either Lizzie she adored her unconditionally, or she definitely planned it over a period of time, to sow the "right" seeds in Lizzie mind to develop a favorable bias for her.

Other things are definitely debatable. The reason why she did not marry, why she switched rooms with Lizzie, her decision to share inheritance and the legal expenses with her sister and the list goes on ending at why she left her sister in 1905 never to see each other ever again.

I definitely cannot say with conviction, but if this mystery ever gets solved, I won't be surprised to learn of Emma to be the one who carefully planned it out, or in actuality committed the crime. These girls definitely had their way out to clear up all the evidence whether it was the robbery a year ago, or the murders on August 04, 1892.

Yes CuriousMind, I agree. I think both girls show their father's tenacious and stubborn nature at various times and Emma was absolutely determined always to allow Abby no way in to Lizzie's heart if she could help it. I often think that was why she was sent away to boarding school, probably at Abby's request, so Abby and Lizzie could have some time together.

It didn't work though and I sometimes wonder what Andrew's view of it was. Was Emma ever punished for refusing to call Abby 'mother'? Most 14year olds would have been at that time, when teenagers calling older people by their Christian names was very, very unusual. Yet Andrew and Abby seem to have accepted it. Why?

I don't think Emma's offering to halve the legal expenses, which were huge, is necessarily sinister. The bills were astronomical for the times and I think Emma was genuinely worried for Lizzie, who was still quite a young woman. After all Emma had little else to spend her money on. She wasn't interested in travel, clothes, religion or much else really.

That scene in the prison cell, when Lizzie accuses her sister of betraying her, is interesting, I think. What do you think about that little episode?

What do other posters think of Emma and her motivations? Let's hear from some of you please, including newbies!

I also agree with you, Curiousmind2014. I would be very surprised to learn that Emma had actually committed the murders. She had an air-tight alibi during the time the murders took place – she was in Fairhaven visiting her friend Helen Brownell, so she could not have possibly committed the murders. However, I believe Emma was responsible for planting her hatred of Abby in Lizzie’s head over the years, along with the idea that life would be a lot more pleasant with her dead.

That is an interesting thought you have there, Curryong, of Emma being sent away to boarding school, so Abby and Lizzie could have some time together. If this was actually the reason she was sent away to school, then Andrew must have whole-heartedly agreed with it, since he would have been the one to pay for her tuition.

Not only was it unusual for a 14 year old to refer to her stepmother by her Christian name, she was showing her disrespect of toward Abby by doing so. After Andrew bought the Whitehead house for Abby, Lizzie began calling her, “Mrs. Borden”. Therefore, Lizzie was also showing her disrespect for Abby, by referring to her as such.

I think Emma felt obligated to share the inheritance and the legal expenses with Lizzie; after all, she had promised her mother to always watch over ‘little Lizzie’. I don’t think Emma ever saw Lizzie as an adult woman, I think she always saw Lizzie as a child.

Even if you remove the murders from the equation, the dynamics in that house were astonishing. Daylight robberies, keys on mantles, L&E receiving guests in a bedroom....

Emma had to have played her part in all of that.

One of my aunts reminds me of Emma. I don't know why. But she is dishonest and sneaky and totally self serving. She was my mother's older sister. They somehow managed to begin to get along in their 50's but it never lasted. She was not protective of my mother at all--- but mean. My point is-- you can tell there is something off about her even if you meet her for the first time and talk to h er for about 15 minutes. Again, I don't know why, but she reminds me of Emma. (My mom was not a bit like Lizzie!)

It's just that we know so little about Emma, her motivations, opinions and personality. She's like a shadow figure in the Borden story, flitting noiselessly around!

I just want to state that sometimes 'the more things change the more they remain the same.'

the reason is that at the moment I am reading on my Kindle a very detailed account of the murder of Julia Wallace in Liverpool England in early 1931. Her husband was accused of murdering her but was ultimately found not guilty by the Appeals Court.

However, she was found bludgeoned to death in the front parlour of her home, a room absolutely stuffed with large heavy furniture. The author of the book states 'Julia Wallace's murderer would only have had a space approximately 6ft by 4ft in which to manoevre, and yet he managed to viciously bludgeon her to death without upsetting a single piece of furniture, ornament or picture in the room. There was obviously no struggle--her murder had to have been premeditated, precise and extremely fast.'

There was a great deal more blood and gore in the Wallace parlour than in the Borden one, but, sounds familiar?
Also, the author writes a little later 'The positioning of Julia's body, as found by Wallace (her husband) has consistently been given as lying on her stomach, stretched out almost diagonally.....The author goes on to point out that, after photographs of body and room had been taken, 'if one looks carefully at each image it can be plainly seen that even in the time taken to move the camera from the door to the window Julia's body has been repositioned.'
By the time these photographs were taken, the police had been allowed to blunder their way around the crime scene without restraint or accountability; the room at times had been as busy as Lime Street railway station on a bank holiday.'

The people allowed to move about in the room and house included neighbours, medicos, the husband and the police. Add to this police shortcomings in not tracking down witnesses and ascribing guilt pretty quickly to one suspect and things become even more familiar. This is as famous a case in British crime history as the Borden case is in the US. After William Wallace's acquittal it remains unsolved. Nothing much learned as far as police procedures go between 1892 and 1931 it seems!

Could Emma have been 'touched' like her mother Sarah? I can't think of another reason that she would have been allowed to call Abby by her first name unless Andrew was somehow leery of her and didn't want to upset her by correcting her or chastising her outright. The use of first name was really rather shocking then. In the 1970s when I was growing up I would never have dreamed of addressing a grown up by their first name, let alone a parent figure. I wonder...could Emma have held the house hostage with HER moods, not Lizzie? Could Andrew have been less ornery than we think and more befuddled, trying to appease his wayward daughters, one who stole, one who obviously viciously hated her stepmother, both who complained loudly about his honest good deed trying to help Abby's sister with her house and demanded their own way? I bet the PMS in that house was off the charts!

I have never seen the evidence that Emma hated Abby or lead Lizzie to hating her. Given that it took Emma years to leave Maplecroft after being advised to leave, and then she never spoke of her reasons to anyone, I just don't see her as this dark figure manipulating in the background. I'm more inclined to attribute whatever damage might have been done to Lizzie's character to spoiling her, catering to her, protecting her from discipline.

It was a double posting for some reason. See my post below

Hey Debbie,

I usually agree with your viewpoint. However, with Emma, I do see her as a dark figure manipulating in the background. However, I believe that with time, especially after the murders, Emma lost her control over Lizzie. One would assume that for a 3yr old Lizzie, Abby would be a mother figure to her. But "someone" (Emma) definitely made her presence felt in that house to make sure Lizzie never got close to Abby. Adherence to addressing Abby as Abby. Open acceptance of her disliking Abby more than Lizzie during the trial and so on.

We definitely don't know much about her. Based on her personality traits, she definitely was not the submissive kind who could not cause a stir in the family. In my books, she is definitely a key reason and an influence on Lizzie's personality and outlook during her younger years than just a protective sister.

I want to know who technically inherited all the money. Was it equally handed over to both of them? Or was it handed over to Emma first which she decided to share equally with Lizzie. If Emma were to inherit all the money, and we assume Lizzie murderer her parents for money and the hatred for them, she definitely had to take Emma in confidence before she committed the crime.

Another issue I always had with Emma and Uncle Morse was that their Airtight Alibis. Let us assume Emma was the one who would have inherited it all and all the people living in that house, along with John Morse were in that home on a day. If one was to create this hypothetical scenario and guess who were the best suited to commit a double homicide,, I would say have guessed in the following order:

A. One convict:

1. John Morse: trained Butcher, and a man (not my perception, but I am giving a perception of society then). However, motive remains questionable other than it being a gift to his nieces. The crime was of passion and hatred. I don't know if John Morse, hated them enough to kill both this way.
2. Emma: Inheritance, hatred & aspiring for freedom.
3. Lizzie: Hatred and freedom. Inheritance if and only if she takes Emma into confidence.
4. Bridget: No motive, unless physically abused/molested/raped or any other variations of these.

B. Multiple Convicts:

1. Emma & Lizzie: Inheritance, hatred and aspiring for Freedom.
2. Emma, Lizzie & Bridget: Same as B1, however, they needed Bridget to make it happen and later paid her off well. However, Bridget could have blackmailed them for more. If this is true, either Bridget was the one who executed the murders, or they all were victims of something really bad that happened in that house over time (Debbie's sexual molestation theory).

3. The fantastic four theory: This was my originally posted theory ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5385 ). I have lost conviction over it as I gathered more facts. However, John Morse's tight alibi, his peach tree stunt and totally ignoring the fact people were gathered around the house; makes me believe we was aware of what was to happen.

My point is, accusations would have been the same if it was Emma at home, and Lizzie was traveling. Probably Emma had more of a motivation than Lizzie did assuming technically she inherited all the wealth. It therefore became important for key suspects to have air tight alibis and plan to execute their intent (in case of Emma) like a chess player than a warrior.

Emma remains an unknown. But in my opinion, she definitely played a very important role in the whole scheme of things.

I go for (1) naturally! Though how much Emma knew or guessed about the murders we'll never know.
(2) There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that Bridget was paid off, either because she participated in the murders or blackmailed anyone. There's no evidence that she travelled back to Ireland, she remained in low-paying, labour-intensive jobs until she married. The sexual molestation, with all due respect to debbie, remains speculative, though something may come out someday, who knows!
(3) John Morse was a very odd man and if he wanted to eat pears while he weighed up the situation outside No. 92, he was entitled!

I believe that Emma did behave in a meek and mild ladylike fashion. I also believe she loaded Lizzie's bullets for her. She might not have hated Abby but I do think she had disdain for her, looked down on her homely ways, and didn't put herself out to be nice to her step-mother.

Both Lizzie and Emma inherited Andrew's money and property as his heirs. After probate Emma received her half. Lizzie naturally didn't, as she was charged with Andrew's murder and was on remand. As soon as she was found not guilty she was eligible to get her half, and she did.

Make no mistake, I definitely think Emma had a profound effect on the development of Lizzie's personality, but not in the Maleficent sense that she lurked in the background and deliberately turned Lizzie against Abby.

Emma was a child when charged by Sarah to look after baby Lizzie. How a child would interpret this duty is much different from an adult vantage point. An adult would attempt to create an environment that fostered Lizzie's growth into a responsible and well-balanced woman capable of emotional reciprocity. An adult would understand the need for rules and discipline and respect that would ultimately move their sibling away from the egocentrism of the young child.

But Emma was much too young for such a burden; she was still an egocentric child herself, a child struggling with her own grief and sorrow of having her mother die followed by a fairly quick transition to a new mother. I think Emma spoiled Lizzie instead of teaching her to share; catered to her every wish instead of teaching her that not getting one's own way is part of life; this entitlement overshadowed everyone and everything else including Emma's own needs and desires and most certainly Abby's; Emma protected Lizzie from Abby's discipline and guidance regardless of whether Abby acted with fairness, consistency and even-handedness; essentially Emma nurtured an overarching sense of entitlement for Lizzie to behave however she wanted.

Emma supported Lizzie in ways unimaginable to Sarah such as taking the blame for suggesting the dress be burned, taking the blame for hating Abby the most, willingly spending a fortune defending Lizzie against charges that she brutally murdered their parents.

I don't see Emma dripping poison, but rather failing to understand that to take care of Lizzie meant far more than ensuring she had her own way about any and everything possible. To be effective with Lizzie, Emma would have first needed to move beyond her own childhood.

On page 354 of The Sourcebook, a friend of Lizzie's gives an interview in which she discusses Emma and Lizzie. She states how they never got along and that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie did. Does anyone know who this friend is?

I got the Sourcebook on my Kindle and ended up with a quarter of the book, that ended before the trial and was absolute gibberish because of all the mis-spellings. I complained to Amazon but nothing happened. Apparently it was usual with that book.

So, no I can't tell you! If it wasn't Alice, who was supposed to have spoken briefly to a reporter during the prelim then the only other person I can imagine doing something like that would be Marianna Holmes, or possibly her husband Charles.

It's a funny thing, but I could accept Emma committing the crimes far easier than I can see Lizzie doing it. Some of the reason I think Lizzie didn't is because of her life after the tragedy. We know almost nothing of Emma before, during or after.

BOBO wrote:On page 354 of The Sourcebook, a friend of Lizzie's gives an interview in which she discusses Emma and Lizzie. She states how they never got along and that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie did. Does anyone know who this friend is?

Thanks, BOBO, I knew I had read this somewhere! I don’t know who this friend was. There were a couple of things which struck me as being very odd, as I was reading through that newspaper article. To begin with this newspaper article did not contain a date, why? Although, according the headline of this article it was published sometime after Lizzie had passed away. I also have to wonder, why this friend was not named? Supposedly, this friend was the nearest and the dearest of Lizzie’s friends, who had been very close and intimate with her for 10 years. Furthermore, if these two women had been very close and intimate for 10 years, why did she refer to her friend as “Lizzie” instead of “Lizbeth”, as Lizzie had preferred to be addressed after her acquittal? I also have to wonder why Ruth Bodwell would have insinuated that the relationship between this friend and Lizzie was more than just close friends, when she wrote that this friend was one of the only two to sleep under the roof with Lizzie Borden. Am I interpreting this incorrectly?

The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, by David Kent Page 354 (Underlining is mine):

Lisbeth Borden, as she chose to call herself after the trial which doomed her to a living death even though it gave her freedom, was not as friendless as some would believe. One of the closest of these friends, perhaps the nearest and the dearest, lifted the veil a little bit on this woman’s tragic life yesterday, in an exclusive interview with the Boston Post.

…

“Up to two years ago, she had been vigorous and healthy,” said this friend whose knowledge of her has been very close and intimate for 10 years.
Probably this woman is one of the only two to sleep under the roof with Lizzie Borden in 35 years, as friend and equal, excepting her sister.
…

“Her sister, Miss Emma L. Borden, with whom she was never congenial, left her 20 years ago and the two never met again. Miss Emma Borden was 10 years older than Lizzie and never had they been happy together. The Borden family not a very happy one anyway.” declared this friend.
“Both girls detested their stepmother. Emma liked her even less than Lizzie. After trying to live together for 15 years after the tragic occurrence in their home, the sisters agreed to separate.”


http://tinyurl.com/q6gesvy

@Debbie & Irina

I think I agree with your last post on this thread. I have no proof; however, I feel that understanding Emma is the key to solving this mystery. The way the murders took place, it had to be very well planned. You needed to have at least Bridget/Lizzie or both keeping an eye out for any trouble or for one of them or someone else to cause the trouble. Assuming this scenario, following is the analysis of everyone's behavior after the bodies were discovered:

1. Lizzie: Cavalier & stoic followed by an emotional outburst during the funeral proceedings. Inquest, morphine dosage and other communications with Lizzie definitely suggests it affected Lizzie psychologically. My friend's grandmother passed away unexpectedly. I was talking to him and asked him how his father is dealing with her absence. He said that for a few days in the midst of all the commotion, he seemed to act normally. The feeling that he has lost her only sank into him during cremation and the week after. Lizzie definitely showed a similar behavior. Also, when I visited my friend's dad and talked to him before the cremation, he was all over the place. As if his mind was in a state of confusion. Lizzie's testimonies and correspondences during this period definitely was all over the place. She definitely must be in a state of shock. (My friend's grandma died because of a cardiac arrest. NO HEAD INJURIES )

2. Emma: Unknown. However, she was calm and composed during the funeral proceedings. Airtight Alibi.
3. Bridget: Tight lipped. Apparently, she had an emotional outburst during the inquest. However, she remained tight lipped all throughout the trial. I always got a feeling from her that she knew a lot more. She just wanted to move forward and remain disassociated with the case and the family in every way.
4. John Morse: Weird. LOL. But he definitely contradicted his traits. Apparently a shrewd person like Andrew, he was observant and blessed with a great memory. He notices the number of the carriage or a conductor's badge, but oversees a deluge of people outside the house.

Lizzie definitely was not even thinking of her being a possible suspect. Lizzie's behavior suggests that she was assured that she won't get into trouble based on what we know. Emma definitely had an airtight Alibi. In case of a planned murder, the murderer would try to have an airtight Alibi. Lizzie definitely had none. If she was upstairs or downstairs, she should have heard Abby dropping to the floor or at least the footsteps and so should have Bridget.

I really would love to know if Emma and Lizzie really liked each other or they liked each other because of a common dislike.

I believe the truth always prevails. I am sure Emma's life is hidden/documented some place. But, we should ask ourselves,

+ If Emma did not love Lizzie, what kept them together
+ What triggered this association to end so abruptly that they never saw each other in their life time.
+ We talk a lot about Emma's promise to her mom. Is this the same Emma who did not even care to attend her sweet Lizzie's funeral?
+ She never left anything for her "beloved sister" in her will

Lizzie is the one who left nothing to her beloved sister.

Emma's Will, in part:

"SIXTH: If my sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me and I shall own an interest at the time of my death in that tract of land with the dwelling house thereon situated on the northerly side of French Street, in said Fall River, and being the same premises now occupied by my sister and which were purchased by my sister and myself of Charles M. Allen, then I give, devise and bequeath all my right, title and interest in and to said tract of land and the improvements thereon, to my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, and all my interest in and to the household furniture in said house or upon said premises.

If, however, at the time of my death I shall have disposed of my interest in said tract of land located on French Street and in the contents of the house, and my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me, then I give and bequeath to my said sister the sum of One Thousand Dollars ($1,000)."

Lizzie's Will, in part:

28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.

I find it interesting that Lizzie referred to Andrew as 'her father’ instead of 'our father’. I think this shows a great deal of coldness toward Emma, and an emotional detachment for Andrew. Emma did not leave Lizzie out in the cold, with nothing. Lizzie, on the other hand, blatantly left nothing to Emma. I think these wills say a lot about the relationship between Emma and Lizzie.

Curiousmind2014 wrote: + If Emma did not love Lizzie, what kept them together
+ What triggered this association to end so abruptly that they never saw each other in their life time.
+ We talk a lot about Emma's promise to her mom. Is this the same Emma who did not even care to attend her sweet Lizzie's funeral?
+ She never left anything for her "beloved sister" in her will

Ambivalence.

Every relationship whether it's primarily love or primarily hate contains an element of ambivalence. This is why Lizzie could hatchet her father to death and then request to be buried at his feet. It's why Emma could spend a fortune defending Lizzie, half a lifetime caring for her, and then walk away forever. It's why we see on the news that a woman is killed by her enraged husband who loved her and would do anything for her, until she thwarted his wishes in some way. Often times we see him weeping in contrition for his heinous deed. It's also why the same man can kill his entire family...a family that he both loved and came to hate.

This is the psychiatric definition of ambivalence:

The simultaneous presence of opposing emotions, formally termed affective ambivalence; it is relatively common and seen in subconscious “love-hate” relationships with others. A state in which a person concomitantly experiences conflicting feelings, attitudes, drives, desires, or emotions, such as love and hate, tenderness and cruelty, pleasure and pain toward the same person, place, object, or situation. It is only regarded as pathological if extreme—e.g., the desire to live and die (which typifies suicidal ideation), or passive aggressive behavior.

Thank you so much for correcting me Twinsrwe!

It is an interesting observation that you have made. Makes me wonder if Emma left that place or she was told to leave. It seems like Emma still had a soft corner for Lizzie. May be it was the death bed promise or she just craved to have someone in her life. Emma was the one rarely lived by herself after she left Lizzie. Lizzie on the contrary enjoyed her own company and had other interests to pursue in life.

As far as her reference to Andrew is concerned, I wonder if its just the way her lawyer thought was technically right. Given that it was a legal document, it wasn't Lizzie who was writing.

Interesting Debbie. I am not a student of psychology. But after you mentioned that, I can relate to what you mean. Thanks for sharing :)

I agree. I do think that as the sisters aged their habits and viewpoints grated on each other more and more. We don't know whether Emma was becoming increasingly irritated by Lizzie's insistence on employing the handsome chauffeur in the face of her disapproval, or whether it was something else relatively minor that was the straw that broke the camel's back. We shall never know. I do think there was a huge row and they parted in bitterness, but I've never believed that it was about lesbianism.

I have a feeling the newspaper article referenced above was largely written by the journalist. I think the references to "intimate" living under the same roof is just a device to say, this woman REALLY did know Lisbeth...uh Lizzie...REALLY did, believe me. Roughly sounds like the one giving the interview was a servant. Perhaps just someone who claimed to have been a servant and to know things she didn't know.

I would guess the will was written by an attorney. Like was said it might be a legal technicality or just the way that lawyer wrote. It could possibly make a difference if anyone every claimed Andrew was Lizzie's father but not Emma's, I suppose. Not that anyone would or did, but the language might preclude something like that.

I have a feeling Emma never speaking to her sister again had to do with a moral judgement on Emma's part. It was more than being tired of each other or grating on each other's nerves. It need not have been a huge problem. It could have been as small as Lizzie having a glass of champagne with Nance O'Neil or it could have been as deep as Lizzie sleeping with the coachman. In my opinion.

Curiousmind2014 wrote:Thank you so much for correcting me Twinsrwe!

It is an interesting observation that you have made. Makes me wonder if Emma left that place or she was told to leave. It seems like Emma still had a soft corner for Lizzie. May be it was the death bed promise or she just craved to have someone in her life. Emma was the one rarely lived by herself after she left Lizzie. Lizzie on the contrary enjoyed her own company and had other interests to pursue in life.

As far as her reference to Andrew is concerned, I wonder if its just the way her lawyer thought was technically right. Given that it was a legal document, it wasn't Lizzie who was writing.

You’re welcome.

Yes, Emma did prefer to live her life with other people around her, and Lizzie preferred to live her live alone, although she had other interest to occupy her time. It seems to me, that Emma did have a place in her heart for Lizzie, but Lizzie disassociated herself from Emma completely. It makes me wonder if Emma wanted to continue to be a part of Lizzie’s life, even though she had moved out of Maplecroft, but Lizzie refused to have anything to do with her.

Regarding Lizzie’s will being a legal document: You may be right, that it was her lawyer who felt it was the technically correct way of wording it, but Lizzie signed that document which means she was in agreement with it.

BOBO. I wonder whether it was Mrs Rev Brigham who was the friend you mentioned giving the interview? She was with Lizzie and Emma the night they were arrested, and she and John Morse conducted the experiment in the guest bedroom when John laid down in the space by the bed.