Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Recently on another thread I think Mbhenty suggested I could experiment to see how blood went from various angles of hatchet swing. I made a reply (which got lost) that I couldn't duplicate blood. However I got a large sack of poultry scraps and a couple chunks of road kill for my animals which I do process with a hatchet. (I really hate this because it always reminds me of the Bordens but nonetheless it is efficient.)

My comment was that I believed Abby's killer swung from the side, not overhead, and that blood spatter flew over the bed and onto the dresser but not onto the killer.

I had a medium large road killed bird of game bird type, defeathered but with guts intact. Fairly fresh, certainly juicy. Since the Bordens died quickly and therefore there was no heart beat maintaining blood pressure, my experiment may be more accurate than we know.

An up and down motion with the hatchet made very little fragments or splatters. (I can't raise the hatchet high overhead with both hands since my left arm is made of spare parts.) I don't think the Borden murderer held the hatchet high overhead anyway, unless one or two whacks to Andrew would qualify.

When I swung the hatchet as I thing Abby's killer did there were a number of fragments, bone chips and bits of meat and juice I could see trailing off the hatchet to left and right. I was using a chopping block about two and a half feet high so my position was standing, partially bent over and less than a foot from the action. I wore a pair of jeans that were of a medium light color and could easily have seen bloody juices or other spots. I never saw any spots on me.

Further I never had any experience of anything on my face or hair. I could have felt such if it had happened. In fact I have never had that experience when chopping meat. I had suggested in my earlier post that blood may have run down the hatchet handle and stained hand or sleeve of murderer. I don't think so because there isn't enough fluid to saturate the handle and it stays with the blade.

The main comment I will still make is my hatchet will not thoroughly sever meat. It will cut through bone and partially sever flesh but it tends to made dents in the flesh. My chopping block at this time is a soft kind of wood, spruce or something and that makes the experiment even more like what Abby's killer experienced. If someone checked out my work they wouldn't be wondering about a "razor sharp instrument". I have no idea if a different hatchet or a sharper hatchet would make a difference. The dimensions of mine are similar to the handless hatchet though the head might be heavier.

Again considering Abby, there was a pool of blood under her head. There was a chunk of bone and hair on the mop board in line with the top of her head. There was a chunk of hair and bone on the bed and there were spatters on the dresser. I think I am right to say the killer swung from right to left and maybe left to right at some point. Without blood pumping in the body, the little chunks of bone and hair, etc. make a lot of sense. I don't know if my clothing could pass a forensic exam of Lizzie's day but very possibly it would.

The kind of whacking I describe doesn't take much effort. Therefore it is suggestive of a woman doing it, I think. I have seen butchers and Chinese cooks cut meat with cleavers and one or two chops takes care of everything. Men in general seem to use an up and down chopping motion for wood or whatever. Men's arms are made a little different from women's. They are a little straighter and women's arms twist a bit more. Would a man find it comfortable to whack a victim at an angle or not? Don't know.

Ick! But I'm glad you did it. You can duplicate blood using corn syrup and food coloring (I'm sure there is a 3rd ingredient but can't remember) - I took crime scene investigation classes.

Wouldn't the cuts be at an angle instead of up and down? The pictures I saw all seem to indicate that the angle of the blade made an up and down cut and not at an angle. Also, it doesn't sound like the hatchet was/is a very strong instrument if it cuts bone but not flesh...

Very interesting experiment irina.

It is very difficult to duplicate an axe coming down onto a human head. The consistency, viscosity, and texture of viscid tissue would be very difficult to duplicate.

Unless one uses a real human head, whatever else we use in our experiment could have very contrasting results.

After one is killed with an axe it is probable that the heart continues to pump for a few seconds. Unless one severs the correct portion of the brain that sends commands to the heart the organ will continue to pump, probably one pump for every two blows. It would be more likely that Mrs. Borden died quicker since the blows were delivered directly to the brain, as Mr. Borden was to the face. I don't know?

With all respect to your earnest attempt, you must question if it would duplicate similar results.

We have all heard of how Lizzie should have been covered with blood. That would have probably not happened as you have suggested. Once the axe buried itself it would splash most of the blood to the left and right of the blade. The momentum of the axe head swinging would do so with centrifugal force sending blood up in the direction of the top of the axe and away. Not towards the handle. Still, there should have been blood on her. Even if just a small drop here or there, drops that would have been very easy for Lizzie to miss in her clean up.

We don't know what sort of weapon was used. But it was reported to be sharp and 3 1/2 inches wide. We have visions of a hatchet because that is what the prosecution brought to court (handles axe)

I have swung hammers and axes all my life. Hatchets have more of a razor blade edge. Axes are made to cut using brute force. The weight of the blade plays a part in the severing or cutting. A hatchet, the sort that the prosecution brought to court are made for precision work, cutting shingles, using little force. I have used one in shingling my house and many others. It has a hammer head on one end to drive nails. The axe helps split the shingle, and the Borden axe has a little V cut out in the blade for pulling nails.

One thing we must consider. As I mentioned above, unless you are a carpenter there are few on this forum who have swung a hammer as much as I have. And in some cases it is still difficult to hit your mark 100% of the time.

There were 30 (29) total blows delivered to the Bordens. None, none missed. No chops to the couch arm or to the floor reported. Every one hit its mark. Forgive me for saying so ladies, but it is difficult to do without one miss or two, especially if you are a lady. The person using that axe was most likely a man, and he was very good at it. With a carpenters hatchet it would not have taken much force. Any woman could have easily buried a hatchet into a person's skull. Once through the bone, very little more than the hatchets weight would be needed to bury it.

Another strange situation to consider, that is, that the axe was not that bloodied, that is to say, that there was no blood reported between the murder scenes, along the floor, through the second floor hallway, the steps and the first floor hall way, or on the way out the door. No blood there at all. Was it wiped clean at the scene? Did not any blood drip from the blade to the floor? If not, why not?

Very interesting experiment irina.

Great work,Irina, very interesting! Good on you for seeing what would happen.

There was one mark on Abby's back, mb, between the shoulder blades. that caused the clothing to be examined again, after it had been buried. I don't think that blow was meant to land where it did. Of course human heads are the ideal but I don't think we are ever going to find a victim for experiment!

However, soon after I joined this forum I also experimented and I reported back on the thread. As had been suggested by an earlier poster I borrowed a toy axe, a friend on a couch and a male overcoat. I reproduced as closely as possible, with water, raining 'blows' down of my friend's head from behind, and to the side. Water did NOT splash up at my face or hair. The vast majority of the liquid ended on my friend, on the couch and splashes on the coat.

I did raise 'wild' blows on a thread soon after I joined as I was puzzled by it. However, Possum, I believe it was Possum, stated that the blows need not necessarily have been wild or hit anything else such as furniture as I suggested, if the blows were short ones. Possum was used to hatchets/axes and I aren't.

Nevertheless, none of my blows in my later experiment 'missed'. I performed it solely to see whether I would be 'blood-soaked' and I wasn't, in spite of my inexperience. Again, repeat. no liquid reached my face or hair, though the male coat was splashed.

I believe the ex poster Shelley used to be a guide at the Borden B and B years ago. She encouraged experiments for guests in the guest room with a volunteer victim and she said that males were quite awkward and bent themselves over like jackknives while, after she suggested it, the females would sit or kneel on the victim's back or bum on the floor and closely chop. She didn't report any wild strokes hitting the furniture etc from the position either.