Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Assuming that Morse orchestrated the double murder and his accomplice hid himself in the guest room for about one hour and a half between his two killings; assuming that they invented the note in order to 1) deceive Abby to enter the guest room to be killed there; 2) deceive Lizzie (and Bridget) to think that Abby went out.

Fortunately for them, neither Lizzie nor Bridget entered the guest room during that one hour and a half. But Morse and his accomplice(s) could not have been sure that the things would occur as they wished. They must have made a second plan to act in the case that Lizzie or Bridget entered the guest room.

What might this conjectural second plan have been? Any idea?

The only question I see would be if Lizzie and Bridget didn't do kill Abby (or have a part in it), where were they at that time? Surely they would have heard something?


I can only guess that if Morse and an accomplice did it, and was walked in on, they could have threatened to kill them as well?

Most old doors, even passage doors, locked from inside or out. First I assume the killer locked himself in. Since I also assume the killer was a man I figure he would have overpowered any female he encountered at the wrong time. Most females of today could not defend themselves against a man's fists. A shove, a punch, a threat...I think any of it would work.

I believe Bridget was outside washing windows, getting water from the barn, visiting with her friend, perhaps even partially resting in the barn or somewhere because I do believe she had a migraine and felt very ill.

I think Lizzie was likely in the cellar during both murders. In the first place I think she used the WC, perhaps collected some laundry or whatever. At some point she went upstairs and mended her dress. I believe at this point the intruder felt trapped and waited till Lizzie went back downstairs.

I believe Lizzie was back in the cellar when Andrew was killed, that she possibly did hear a groan, either her father or the killer grunting or whatever. I think she heard foot steps on the floor and thought Abby had returned. She may even have heard the killer descending the stairs and have been unsure if he was coming down or if (presumably) a returned Abby was ascending. I don't think she thought too much about these sounds till she found her father dead.

I think the barn story was a way she could mentally deal with being in the house when her father was murdered. She lied from shock or fear or shame. She needed to place herself as far away from the murder of her father as she could. Perhaps she asked herself over and over, "Why didn't I do something to help Father?"

I don't think she cared much about Abby but a second murder in such close proximity must have been an extra dose of horror, shock, survivor's guilt, overwhelming fear and confusion. I don't think she could admit to herself that she was downstairs while her father was being so horribly killed. She invented a way to be as far away from the scene as possible~the far corner of the barn, upstairs~and sticking to it saved her sanity or prevented her from having to deal with something she could not.

Interesting theories, Irina. I need to go re-read the transcripts relating to Lizzie.

Irina, why would an intruder, especially an insane or transient one, spare Lizzie's life.? It wasn't as if, when she went up stairs, she had a lengthy corridor between her and the assassin who'd just brutally killed her stepmother. All of us have seen from photos and the observations of those who've lived and worked at No 92, how small and cramped the house was. Lizzie's room and the guest room were literally about two steps away from each other. Yet a male intruder would listen to movements (however small and imperceptible) and decide "I'm trapped" rather than attack and overcome Lizzie and then make his escape? It just doesn't ring true to me, sorry!

I see an intruder who was very angry with Abby, who committed murder, spent his fury at that time then perhaps even regretted he was trapped with his work. I think he tried to get out but Andrew woke up. Lots of crimes happen in the spur of the moment~which I feel would be true if Lizzie did it also~and the perpetrator regrets soon after, if for no other reason than that he or she will surely be caught.

Murder is also frequently an act of dehumanization. Mass murderers will kill everyone present but others are more selective. At the moment Abby was killed, no matter who did it, she was a b****, an interfering step-mother, filthy, hateful, mean, whatever that rendered her less than human and deserving of killing. Perhaps an intruder wouldn't have wanted to kill more than one. If Lizzie did it we have a somewhat different dynamic, though at the moment of Abby being killed, whoever did it had depersonalized her and only her IMO. Another question if Lizzie did it would be what would have happened if Bridget had walked in on Lizzie killing Abby? If Abby had called out for instance and Bridget had heard & come to help? What would Lizzie have done? I don't think she would have killed Bridget.

More and more I see 92 Second as a 3 story double wide mobile home with a cellar. Looking at it that way does give an idea of size and closeness.

I'm still in the "Lizzie intended to kill Abby and burn down the house to hide the evidence before Andrew and John arrived home" mode, but given Franz's theory, I think the killer would've dispatched anyone who had the misfortune to discover him. One murder=the gallows. Four murders does not=four gallows. So nothing to lose and everything to gain if discovered.

Irina, you lost me in your way of seeing things!!!??? I’m really confused!

You stated: ‘In the first place I think she used the WC, perhaps collected some laundry or whatever. At some point she went upstairs and mended her dress. I believe at this point the intruder felt trapped and waited till Lizzie went back downstairs.’ A male intruder, who feels trapped, by a woman, who was in her room mending her dress??? As curry, pointed out, the door to Lizzie's room and the door to the guest room were literally a couple of steps away from each other. Therefore, a male intruder could have easily overtaken and killed a woman whose focus was on mending her dress.

You stated: ‘I see an intruder who was very angry with Abby, who committed murder, spent his fury at that time then perhaps even regretted he was trapped with his work. I think he tried to get out but Andrew woke up.’ Andrew woke up??? Andrew wasn’t even in the house during the time Abby was killed. He left the house around 9:00am; Abby was killed around 9:30am. If an intruder was so angry with Abby that he brutally killed her in the manner in which she was killed, then why would he wait an hour and a half to savagely kill Andrew? We have testimony which establishes Abby's death was around 9:00AM, and Andrew's death was around 11:00am.

How do you see an intruder getting into a house that was locked down tighter than Fort Knox?

How did this intruder escape the house of horrors undetected?

What motive did this intruder have for killing Abby and Andrew?

What did this intruder gain from murdering two people in cold blood?

What evidence do you have to support the way you are seeing things?

Irina, I'm not saying you are wrong in the way you see Abby and Andrew were killed, however, I am left confused and have a lot of questions.

OFF TOPIC: Debbie, I really like your new Avatar!

Franz wrote:Assuming that Morse orchestrated the double murder and his accomplice hid himself in the guest room for about one hour and a half between his two killings; assuming that they invented the note in order to 1) deceive Abby to enter the guest room to be killed there; 2) deceive Lizzie (and Bridget) to think that Abby went out.

Fortunately for them, neither Lizzie nor Bridget entered the guest room during that one hour and a half. But Morse and his accomplice(s) could not have been sure that the things would occur as they wished. They must have made a second plan to act in the case that Lizzie or Bridget entered the guest room.

What might this conjectural second plan have been? Any idea?

Franz, I really have no idea what their back-up plan would have been, that is if they had thought far enough ahead of time to even have a back-up plan. Anyone who kills in the manner in which Abby and Andrew were killed, would not hesitate to kill anyone who interferes in their intended goal.

Let's try this again (apparently if one hits submit at the same time as another, their post is lost):

Parallel Lives, page 27:

"Mrs. Dr. Kelly, nee Mary Caroline Cantwll had a dentist's appointment that day, and as she headed out for it at half-past ten, she saw Borden returning to his home. Borden had gone downtown to make his morning rounds...feeling ill, he cut his morning errands short and returned to his home earlier than usual."

I wonder if his time coming home would change his time of death? And I'm not sure how anyone knew he was feeling ill but I guess it's a safe assumption based on his being sick the day before (or 2 days before).

Twins, Thank you. And of course your cute new avatar gave me the idea for a new New Years avatar for me....

And very lovely and seasonal they both are!

MysteryReader, no-one was looking at clocks and watches (if they had any) when Andrew returned home. However Mrs Dr Kelly's kitchen clock was fast. It's been speculated that Andrew arrived home around 10:40am. Workmen and others who saw him when he was out said he looked seedy. He himself stated he wasn't going to stay for a bank meeting because of this.

I'm a Lizzie did it person, but I do think her plans to bump her father off were rescheduled. This was due to the unwelcome news that her father imparted when he got home that Uncle John was coming back for the midday meal. I don't believe she knew that before, as she wasn't up when John left early that morning.

It's my belief that Lizzie intended to continue the fiction that Abby was out, stopping her husband from looking for her. Then, with Bridget gone for her afternoon off, Lizzie could kill Daddy around one pm , give herself an alibi by going to the shops, and, who knows, Debbie's idea of causing a fire might have been in mind.

John Morse due to come home wrecked all that. He was talkative, hung around for hours with Andrew. Worse, what if he'd gone to his room (the guest room) to splash some water on his face after his walk, or something? Therefore, what had to be done had to be done quickly. Lizzie was in luck. Bridget wasn't feeling well and went up to her room. Andrew decided to lie down. John hadn't come back. And so Lizzie took the opportunity, I believe.

I do seem to remember it being around 10:40 a.m., thanks, Curry!

debbiediablo wrote:Twins, Thank you. And of course your cute new avatar gave me the idea for a new New Years avatar for me....

You’re welcome. Glad I gave you the idea for your new avatar. I had to really deduce mine to fit the forum requirements, but it didn’t turn out too badly. Although, I wish it could have been a little bit bigger, so that we could see the animated parts better.

Curryong wrote:And very lovely and seasonal they both are! ...

Thanks, Curry!

In answer to your questions, Twins, I think it's possible Abby let the killer in or he came in the unlocked side door when Lizzie was in the cellar and Bridget was on the other side of the house. Something Abby said or did enraged him and he committed murder. He wasn't a mass murderer. He would have liked to get out. Maybe he didn't know Lizzie was in the house till she went upstairs.

Lizzie went down stairs when her father came home. There was conversation and some activity. Then things quieted down. I believe Lizzie went back into the cellar, not to the barn. At that point I believe the killer was in the process of leaving, sneaking past Andrew on the couch but that Andrew woke up, partially arose, called out Abby's name or some such. Possibly the killer was someone who would have been known to the household and didn't want to be recognized. I don't subscribe to the elaborateness of Franz' idea but I think it is very possible that someone known to the family committed the deed.

Yes I do think it is possible an intruder could have stayed in a room for ninety minutes or so. For me it is not whether such a man could have killed or disabled anyone in his path, but did he want to? Perhaps he did know the family. Maybe he didn't want to kill Lizzie. Whoever killed Abby killed in a fit of passion. Maybe he didn't enjoy killing. Maybe he could justify in his mind killing Abby but once the passion was spent maybe he didn't want to kill anymore unless really cornered.

I can't prove any of this but I believe, based on what Lizzie said, that she heard the murder committed. She may have heard and experienced things because she was the murderer but I don't think so. Based on her account and testimony I believe she heard a groan or a distressing noise and thought she heard Abby return, possibly thought Abby went upstairs. If one believes what she said, then who, why and how were the murders committed? I don't go for the conspiracy idea. The plainest explanation is that someone~if an intruder I would think it a man~was REALLY ticked off with Abby.

I have just never felt Lizzie did it. Modern cold case work demonstrates that seemingly normal, decent people do commit heinous murders and then go on to live seemingly normal lives. However in many of these cases those people really aren't as normal as they seem. Those close to them know of flaws in character for example. From what we know of Lizzie's life after acquittal I feel reinforced in believing she didn't do it.

For me the pieces don't fit together either for Lizzie doing it or clearly for an unknown killer yet someone committed double homicide. We are missing some big pieces either way our thinking goes. The closer one gets to the truth, the better the pieces should fit. Lots of pieces fit for Lizzie being guilty but there are some big pieces that don't fit. For me the time element when Andrew was killed is a big stumbling block. I would be more accepting of Lizzie's guilt if she had gone shopping or even gone upstairs and claimed she was in bed with a 'sick headache' or something when her father was killed. Instead she raised the alarm very rapidly. So I do look at both sides all the time but I really don't feel Lizzie did it. She may have been involved but I don't think she actually committed the crime. Therefore for me someone else had to be in the house either known or unknown to Lizzie and or Bridget at the time.

I think it is possible that sometime there will be new information that will pull it all together. It could be that Lizzie and Emma did arrange something and let the killer into the house. On the other hand there may be a simple explanation that covers a killer other than Lizzie. Whatever it is we don't have it right now.

Nice write-up, Irina. Thank you for answering most of my questions. I see your reasoning more clearly now; although, I don’t agree with you. A couple of things I just can’t seem to get past, involving any intruder theory is: 1.) (Excluding Arnold Brown’s William Borden as the intruder) What motive would an intruder have for killing two people? 2.) What did the intruder gain from murdering these two people? These are the two questions you didn’t answer.

While I don't hold much to the intruder theory for the murders, here are 2 interesting things I came across:

Parallel Lives, page 171+

In 1871 Fall River had 8 fires in about 2 weeks span targeting the wealthy, Andrew J. Borden's workplace ( mill he owned) among the targeted.

On July 30, 1876, "between the hours of 9-10 (doesn't say morning or night), an unusual robbery took place at 52 Second Street, 6 houses N of the Borden residence...burglars climbed in through an open window in the rear of the house, lower story. At the time of the break, the tenants were upstairs." Some articles of clothing and money were stolen from the house.

Questions- do we know for certain that windows in the back of the Borden house were closed and/or locked? Do we know for certain that the side door screen was locked at all times, except for when Bridget was out cleaning?

It did mention that after the robbery, residents on Second Street probably kept one eye open while sleeping and one ear out for any unusual noises.

Do you mean on the morning of the murder, Mystery? Bridget gave testimony that after she had finished cleaning up the kitchen and put the breakfast things away she prepared to wash the windows as instructed by Abby.

There was only one window at the back of the house if you look at the house plan, and that is in the kitchen, (looking at the house from the front door.) It abuts the outside bit of the cellar. There is a window near the side door and there are two side windows in the kitchen. Neither the pantry nor the sink room have windows.

Bridget told the court at the inquest and trial that she went from room to room closing the windows ready for the washing. (When the family got up and were eating breakfast my guess is that the windows had been pushed up a bit to air the house before the heat of the day, though this isn't mentioned in testimony.) Bridget saw no-one while she was doing this.

I don't know whether the Borden windows could be locked. These are sash windows. They are set quite high and each has shutters, though whether they were closed every evening before bed in the summer I can't say. They had blinds on the inside.

Given the Borden obsession with locked doors, I can't quite imagine windows that could not be secured....

My two questions would be: (1) Why leave two living witnesses-- Lizzie and Bridget. And (2) Even if Lizzie and Bridget didn't see what was going on? I mean, the house isn't all that big, it's a real tight house, so how could they not hear or see something?

Bridget and Lizzie weren't living witnesses unless they saw the murders being committed or were witness to someone fleeing the house. Particularly in a double homicide the killing of true witnesses can be justified from an efficiency viewpoint because just one murder is needed for that one-way trip to the gallows and two deaths pretty much guarantee no mercy from the court. So getting all the witnesses out of the way is vital to success of the crime. However. killing the household simply because they lived there takes up valuable time and creates more opportunity for leaving clues, necessitates more clean-up and increases chances for making mistakes and getting caught by someone who cannot be overpowered. My thoughts are the only sound readily heard would've been Abby hitting the floor face first if she did so from a standing position. I don't think the hatchet work was all that noisy.

Yes, I meant on the morning of the murders with my questions about the windows. As you can see, that family was robbed while upstairs - hence my questions about the windows. There is always the screen door being unlocked.

How many times have you been home (you know your family or a couple of members have been home) and you hear someone moving about but you ignore it? That could have happened that morning, too.

MysteryReader wrote:Yes, I meant on the morning of the murders with my questions about the windows. As you can see, that family was robbed while upstairs - hence my questions about the windows. There is always the screen door being unlocked.

How many times have you been home (you know your family or a couple of members have been home) and you hear someone moving about but you ignore it? That could have happened that morning, too.

Absolutely that could've happened. Especially with Bridget rattling around with a window brush and the street traffic outside. A thump upstairs could've been written off as Abby moving furniture.

I think that we should consider their second plan (is it the right word here?) all together with the consideration of the motive of Morse and his accomplice(s).

OK, if we say that John Morse decided, because of disgust at his nieces being disinherited and maybe a feeling that Abby didn't care for him much, who would his accomplice be? One of the Davis family? What could their motive be, Franz, and what would they get out of it in the matter of reward?