Lizzie Borden Society Forum

There was a previous thread mentioning the infamous ring that Lizzie gave to her father. This is all I know about it:

Lizzie gave it to her father as a gift (according to Emma's testimony) and it wasn't a class ring for 2 reasons:

1) "during that period, members of graduating classes obtained class pins, with rings not being introduced as an option until the second decade of the 20th century and
2) Lizzie never graduated." (p. 79)

Good question as this has been tossed around as fact or factoid for quite awhile.

I haven't looked for previous posts yet regarding the ring.

That's because little is known about it, MysteryReader. Andrew certainly always wore such a ring on his little finger given to him by Lizzie, as Emma explained to the defence attorney at Lizzie's trial. The legend of it being a High school ring seems to have originated with the ever-imaginative Victoria Lincoln in her book on the Borden case.

As you and others have pointed out, High School pins not rings were in use at the time and later. My guess is Lizzie, who loved jewellery, bought it as a present for her father (birthday, Christmas?) when she was a very young woman, perhaps still a teenager. He was wearing it when he died.

My extent of knowledge is what I have posted and that Andrew was buried with it. Maybe the book will touch on it later.

Trial testimony, page 1530, Volume 2:

Q: Did your father wear a ring. Miss Emma, upon his finger?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was or was not that the only article of jewelry which he wore?
A: The only article
Q: Do you know from [whom] he received the ring?
A: My sister Lizzie.
Q: How long before his death?
A: I can't tell you accurately. I should think ten or fifteen years.
Q: Do you know whether previously to his wearing it she had worn it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did he constantly wear it after it was given to him?
A: Always.
Q: Do you know whether or not it was upon his finger at the time he was buried?
A: It was.

The ring is mentioned again in closing arguments, that it was a gift from Andrew's little girl, etc. Nothing substantive.

Emma in this bit of testimony does not say it was a school ring. I think my first knowledge of this being a school ring was in Victoria Lincoln's book, many years ago.

The ring is mentioned in other parts of testimony at the inquest in that when asked about the valuables her father had on his person, Lizzie identified a wallet, silver watch and chain and gold ring. All items were present so robbery was ruled out.

From Emma's testimony then we learn that Lizzie had first worn the ring, she gave it to Andrew and he wore it continuously and he was buried with it. Winwood couldn't remember if he was buried with the ring but Emma said he was. It would be fascinating to know where Lizzie got the ring in the first place. Wonder is a beau gave it to her? Did a relationship go sour and did Lizzie decide she liked her father more? (I don't mean sexually, I mean as a dependable male figure in her life.)

I do remember the testimony and the book (Parallel Lives) touched on it but so far, nothing as to where she got it. I've read so far about her childhood and WHAT it might have been like and what it might have been like as a teen. I hope it touches on her life in her 20s, that kinda thing.

I'm sure it will, MysteryReader. It's doing well so far!

I forgot that Emma said that Lizzie had worn it. You may be correct, irina. Lizzie could have inherited it (perhaps from her mother's side of the family) and decided it was more suitable for a man and so gifted it to her father.

If we count back ten years from the time of the trial that would be 1883 and Lizzie was then 23. Nothing to do with her education, surely, at that age. Before 1885 Lizzie led a very quiet life, at home. Fifteen years (if we are being literal with Emma's testimony) is an eighteen year old Lizzie in the year 1878. Giving her father the gift of a ring seems to be more the sort of thing a young girl would do, but that's just my opinion.

I just posted the following in the thread titled, The Ring Lizzie Gave To Andrew. Since it is an eye-popping piece of information, I’ll also post it here.

Here is a real kicker:

On page 5 of The Trial of Lizzie Borden, by Edmund Pearson, he claims:

"Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy---the contemporary equivalent of a Ford car---and he had presented at least one of his daughters (the younger) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or cape . . . "

So, Andrew gave Lizzie a diamond ring, and Lizzie gave him a ring. It really makes me wonder just what kind of a relationship Andrew and Lizzie had!!! Sounds like it was a bit more than just a father/daughter relationship, doesn't it?

Wow, the famous 'bug-ridden' sealskin cape! No wonder there was bad blood between Abby and Lizzie with fur coats and diamond rings being handed out while Abby wore Andrew's boots and bought lace curtains out of her weekly allowance! Food for thought there, twins, thanks! Is Pearson reliable though?

Well, as far as I know he is a reliable source.

In his 'acknowledgments' section he credits several sources: Edwin Porter, newspapers from Fall River, Providence, New Bedford, Boston and New York -- and he goes on to say: "Many interesting facts were communicated during interviews, or through correspondence, with ladies or gentlemen who spoke from personal knowledge, but under the stipulation that their names should not be published." (Pearson, viii)

FYI: I got the above information, as well as the information in my previous post, from the thread titled, Diamond Ring. It was posted by Diana, who was very knowledgeable regarding the Borden case, on the May 03, 2007. Here is the link: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/v ... f=1&t=2764

twinsrwe wrote:I just posted the following in the thread titled, The Ring Lizzie Gave To Andrew. Since it is an eye-popping piece of information, I’ll also post it here.

Here is a real kicker:

On page 5 of The Trial of Lizzie Borden, by Edmund Pearson, he claims:

"Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy---the contemporary equivalent of a Ford car---and he had presented at least one of his daughters (the younger) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or cape . . . "

So, Andrew gave Lizzie a diamond ring, and Lizzie gave him a ring. It really makes me wonder just what kind of a relationship Andrew and Lizzie had!!! Sounds like it was a bit more than just a father/daughter relationship, doesn't it?

Wow! It is an eye-opener. Of course, the thought just popped in my mind- if there was any sexual or abuse going on, could it have been a bribe?

Pearson seems to be innocent of hinting at anything at all untoward. He groups the high-class buggy in with the furs and jewellery as evidence that Andrew wasn't as stingy as many thought him, being generous to his family etc etc. I wonder whether Emma ever got a fur from Daddy? Somewhere in the back of my memory I think there was mention of a cape for Emma but where it came from, who knows! I wonder who persuaded Andrew to splash out and buy a buggy?

MysteryReader wrote:

twinsrwe wrote:I just posted the following in the thread titled, The Ring Lizzie Gave To Andrew. Since it is an eye-popping piece of information, I’ll also post it here.

Here is a real kicker:

On page 5 of The Trial of Lizzie Borden, by Edmund Pearson, he claims:

"Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy---the contemporary equivalent of a Ford car---and he had presented at least one of his daughters (the younger) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or cape . . . "

So, Andrew gave Lizzie a diamond ring, and Lizzie gave him a ring. It really makes me wonder just what kind of a relationship Andrew and Lizzie had!!! Sounds like it was a bit more than just a father/daughter relationship, doesn't it?

Wow! It is an eye-opener. Of course, the thought just popped in my mind- if there was any sexual or abuse going on, could it have been a bribe?

I suppose it could have been a bribe, but personally I don't believe it was.

A sexual relationship between Andrew and Lizzie did cross my mind, as well. If this is true, then I think it had to have been a consensual one. I highly doubt Lizzie would have given her father a ring, if they were in a non-consensual sexual relationship. I believe Lizzie was an odd duck, but to give her father a ring if they were in a non-consensual sexual relationship would be way beyond odd.

Curryong wrote:Pearson seems to be innocent of hinting at anything at all untoward. He groups the high-class buggy in with the furs and jewellery as evidence that Andrew wasn't as stingy as many thought him, being generous to his family etc etc. ...

I agree.

Curryong wrote: ... I wonder whether Emma ever got a fur from Daddy? Somewhere in the back of my memory I think there was mention of a cape for Emma but where it came from, who knows! I wonder who persuaded Andrew to splash out and buy a buggy?

I have not heard of Andrew giving Emma a fur, but then she was not as much in the 'limelight' as Lizzie was.

However, if I recall correctly, at one point in time the Borden barn was used to house a horse; I’m sure there was a buggy stored in the barn as well, since it was by horse and buggy that the citizens of Fall River got around. Fall River decided to put a luxury tax on having horses, so to avoid paying this tax, Andrew decided to get rid of the horse and buggy.