Lizzie Borden Society Forum

(I apologize if something of this nature has been posted before)

I have been rereading Lizzie's inquest testimony and something just dawned on me.

Lizzie is first asked when did the trouble with her and Abby begin:

Q. Did you ever have any trouble with your stepmother?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you within six months had any words with her?
A. No sir.
Q. Within a year?
A. No sir.
Q. Within two years?
A. I think not.
Q. When last that you know of?
A. About five years ago.
Q. What about?
A. Her stepsister, half-sister.
Q. What name?
A. Her name now is Mrs. George W. Whitehead.
Q. Nothing more than hard words?
A. No sir. They were not hard words. It was simply a difference of opinion.

So the trouble started around 5 to 6 years prior to the murder when the house was given to Abby.

Then we see that Uncle John came to visit around the same time:

Q. Do I understand you to say that his last visit before this one was 14 years ago?
A. No. He has been here once between the two.
Q. How long did he stay then?
A. I don't know.
Q. How long ago was that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Give me your best remembrance.
A Five or six years; perhaps six.


His last visit before the one five or six years prior to the murder was approximately 8 or 9 years before.

Q. Before that, had he been at your house---before he came east?
A. Yes, he has been here, if you remember the winter that the river was frozen over and they went across, he was here that winter, some 14 years ago, was it not?
Q. I am not answering questions but asking them.

Funny that Uncle John was around when the trouble first started between Abby and Lizzie, when Lizzie ceased calling her 'mother'. It's also funny that it was due to money/business.

Uncle John was in town when the murders happened. Seems to me like he may have been there to help Andrew with some business that he needed to take care of. Maybe Lizzie, sensing that Uncle John's presence may have been needed for another business deal, decided to snoop and found out something that really sent her over the edge.

It's too strange for it to be coincidental.

I've read that Uncle John visited the Bordens just a few months previous to August 1892, but it's 2:06 AM so I won't be checking. And yes, Violette, a number of people connect his visit with a potential business deal. Curryong, in particular, believes it was related to the Swansea farm. Others think the sale of some wild horses went sour. I'm more inclined to believe that Uncle John's unannounced visit changed Lizzie's plans: I think she initially intended to murder both Abby and Andrew, lure Bridget (who became unexpectedly ill) out for the afternoon, and then burn down the house to hide the crime. I think her conversation with Alice Russell accurately foreshadowed the crime she intended to commit, but couldn't because John Morse was coming back to join Andrew for lunch. Forensic criminologists list foreshadowing as a common element in domestic homicides.

violette wrote:... Uncle John was in town when the murders happened. Seems to me like he may have been there to help Andrew with some business that he needed to take care of. ...

John Morse was not only Andrew’s brother-in-law, he was also a friend, whom Andrew consulted regarding matters involving his personal property. Uncle John went to see Andrew on the 3rd, because of a business request from Andrew regarding one of the Swansea Farms.

Knowlton questions Morse regarding his and Andrew’s last communications. Inquest testimony, Page 98. (Highlighting and underlining are mine.):

Q You do not think you had written announcing your visit this time?
A. I don't think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket if you want to see it.'

Q What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter, dated July 25th 1892.)

Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.

Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.

Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.

Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.

Mostly likely the farm on Pearce Road, was the farm Andrew needed a man to take care of. The farm house on Gardner’s Neck Road was used as a summer vacation home for the Bordens. The farm on Pearce Road, near Maple and Old Warren Road, was an operating farm, with cattle, chickens, pigs and so on. (MB, please correct me if this information is incorrect.)

violette wrote:... Maybe Lizzie, sensing that Uncle John's presence may have been needed for another business deal, decided to snoop and found out something that really sent her over the edge. ...

We don't know what the conversation was between John and Andrew on the evening of the 3rd, but Abby did. These two men may very well have been talking about a will naming Abby as primary beneficiary, a transfer of land in Abby’s name, or something on that order. We don't know how much of Andrew and John's conversation was overheard by Lizzie, who would have been able to clearly hear their conversation from the upstairs front hall landing, without being noticed. As far as I know, the timeline for the evening of the 3rd is approximately: 8:45 pm Morse returns from Swansea, talks in sitting room with Andrew and Abby. 9:00 pm Lizzie returns from Alice Russell’s house, enters and locks the front door and goes immediately up to her room without speaking to her father or uncle. 9:15 pm Abby Borden retires to bed. 10:00 pm Andrew and Morse retire to bed. If this time line is somewhat correct, then Lizzie could have eavesdropped in on approximately an hour of the conversation between John and Andrew.

In the thread titled, what would have make a person get this violent?, Shelley Dziedzic, who, according to her profile, was an innkeeper at 92 Second Street for 10 years, had an interesting post about eavesdropping.

On Wed Oct 31, 2007, Shelley posted:

If all the window are open, you cannot hear a conversation in the sitting room from Lizzie's room unless the speakers stand right in the sitting room window and speak loudly. You have to go out on the front hall upstairs landing to hear a conversation in the sitting room- of course that would also have been very easy for Lizzie to have done Wednesday night when she came home from Alice's.

What I have found more interesting is the fact that Lizzie moved her headboard right into that corner by the door between her room and Abby's room. Her pillow lines up exactly with the KEYHOLE into the older Borden's bedroom and yes, every single word anyone says in that room can be heard clear as a bell. Andy's safe was also right in that room behind Lizzie pillow. I never thought it was a coincidence she moved that bed as soon as she got back from Europe and crammed it right in that corner. Sure, it kept Abby or anyone else from ever being able to come through that door, but it also gave her the best spot in the house to eavesdrop.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ne4z7z5

The following link takes you to a 13 minutes, 30 second video. At the 4:56 mark, you will see Parallel Lives in the screen; this is the beginning of Michael Martins and Dennis Binette talk about the Historical Society’s Borden Murder Exhibit. At the 6:25 mark Dennis tells about the position Abby was found in. Given the fact that her body was actually about 1 foot under the bed when she was found, indicates that Abby was attempting to escape. This video is well worth your time to watch:

http://tinyurl.com/pxaoomx

I think the all mighty dollar was the primary motive, but I also strongly feel that it was NOT the ONLY motive. I am a 'Lizzie did it' believer, I have always felt that there was something that took place between Abby and Lizzie on the morning of the 4th, which enraged Lizzie and she snapped!

I see this as a possibility, too, Twins. When I visualize Abby's murder she is finishing up in the guest room, sees the murderer come through the door and immediately realizes she is about to die. Abby sees her killer, knows who it is because the killer wants her to know, and then turns to flee as the first blow is struck. It's possible the blow to the top of her head occurred if the killer grabbed her by the hair to drag her away from under the bed. I'm not a watcher of fictional Lizzie movies so have no idea if this is how it's been filmed.

Given that Lizzie presaged the death of her parents just the night before, I'm inclined to think the murders were at least planned in fantasy but perhaps not for the next day. In psychology, but not religion, there are no bad thoughts, only bad acts. Normal is a debatable condition but for lack of a better word, "normal" people can have very "abnormal" thoughts, fantasies that we may not fully acknowledge even to ourselves. So it's not a leap to imagine Lizzie imagining how she would kill Abby and maybe Andrew, too.

I can see exactly what you say, Twins, that Lizzie and Abby had words and Lizzie snapped, reappearing sometime later to carry out her fantasy. I can also see the flipside where Lizzie was acting with premeditation and no immediate provocation, that she may even have mentioned dirty windows to Abby knowing full well that this would get Bridget out of the house for the morning. Either way, if Lizzie committed this crime, I think Lizzie wanted Abby to see her, to know that she would be dying at the hands of her husband's child. I think she left the bedroom door open to admire her handiwork, to better enjoy the carnage. I don't get this vibe with Andrew. His murderer sneaked up from behind, and, if Lizzie, she couldn't tolerate even waiting long enough for someone else to find the body.



Something similar to this was on the Dexter website a few years ago but it is NOT (as was said) a genuine psychological test to identify psychopaths. However it's fun to see how fast people come up with the correct answer. Those of us who are obsessed with true crime, unsolved murders and serial criminals figure it out fairly quickly...


This is a story about two adult sisters, Lizzie and Emma. They seemed devoted to each other in every way. Emma, the older, was very protective of Lizzie because their mother, Sarah, was seriously ill for a long time. Finally Sarah died.

While at the their mother's funeral, Lizzie met a doctor whom she did not know. When she asked around no one could tell her his identity.

Lizzie thought this doctor was was amazing, charming, good-looking, really hot...her soulmate found, so much so that she fell in love with him then and there. Lizzie fantasized about him night and day, day and night.

Several weeks later Emma was murdered. Everything pointed toward Lizzie as the killer, but the police couldn't figure out a motive. Lizzie is a psychopath. Why did she kill her sister?

DON'T Scroll down until you have your own answer is to this question...









Answer: Lizzie was hoping that the doctor of her dreams would reappear at Emma's funeral.