Lizzie Borden Society Forum

"Re: Theories?"
Posted by Kat on Dec-21st-03 at 4:13 AM

"Nailing The Poison Story / Neither Nor Any Relatives Bought Prussic Acid at Brow's," Boston Herald, August 8, 1982: 2.

"It was claimed Lizzie made a second attempt to purchase prussic acid at Walter J. Brow's Drug Store at 62 Second Street. A Boston Herald reporter interviewed Mr. Brow to verify the rumor. Mr. Brow said Lizzie traded at his store and had known Lizzie for the past twenty years. He assured the reporter Lizzie did not purchase any prussic acid. He recalled that Lizzie stopped trading at his store about four years ago. Her last purchase was chloroform, stating she wanted it for the purpose of killing a cat. Mr. Brow states Miss Borden asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and he answered just as saucily. Miss Borden paid for the chloroform and went out. She has never been in the shop since."

All these questions and theories I have read on the forum about poison being used to subdue Andrew so there would not be a struggle, or Lizzie waiting til he went to sleep to provide her a perfect opportunity, and wondering how was Abby killed with so little of an apparent struggle? So many questions and so many different theories. When I read this in a post from Kat in the archives, I wondered if the idea that came to me had ever been considered by any of you. There is a written eye witness statement to Lizzie buying chloroform.Chloroform could be bought over the counter? No one thought that maybe this is how the victims were subdued? Just an idea that occured to me, decided to see what you all thought about it.

"Chloroform (also known as trichloromethane and methyl trichloride) is a chemical compound with formula CHCl3. It is a colorless liquid with a pleasant, nonirritating odor and a slightly sweet taste. It does not support combustion in air, although it will burn when mixed with more flammable substances."

"In 1847, the Edinburgh obstetrician James Young Simpson first used chloroform to effect general anesthesia during childbirth."

"In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, chloroform was used as an inhaled anesthetic during surgery. However, safer, more flexible drugs have entirely replaced it in this role. The major use of chloroform today is in the production of the freon refrigerant R-22. However, as the Montreal Protocol takes effect, this use can be expected to decline as R-22 is replaced by refrigerants that are less liable to result in ozone depletion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform

It's interesting that chloroform comes up after the deed. Morse has a reference to it attributed to him which sounds very odd:

Rebello, pg. 135+

"Uncle John Morse Talks," New Bedford Evening Journal, Friday, June 23, 1893: 3.

"Uncle Morse offered his theory to a journalist two days after the trial. 'I would give $2,000 to know who committed those murders ... My idea is that he went into that house for the purpose of killing Mr. Borden, but not finding Mr. Borden in, he went upstairs in the front chamber to wait and watch for him. While in there, I think Mrs. Borden came in ___?___ after making the bed, and he was forced to kill her ... as not to be found out, with that hatchet about his person.' (Morse made no mention of Mr. Borden's murder.)

'Now they say that Lizzie Borden did that and I [John Morse] planned it all out. If I'd been planning it, is it likely I'd have planned in that way? Wouldn't it have been easier to have smothered them with chloroform in the night and in the morning said they had committed suicide?'"

--I believe they had a test, or recognized the symptoms for chloroform poisoning back then.

Can you tell me your source for the detection of chloroform back then?

"Trichloromethane or Chloroform is a colourless liquid, 40 times sweeter than sugar. It was first usd as a potent surgical anesthetic by British physician, Sir James Simpson in 1847 and became generally accepted in England after 1853, when John Snow gave it to Queen Victoria during the birth of her 8th child. Snow used it on a handkerchief folded into the shape of a cone. The methods of detecting chloroform in human blood and tissues are not very reliable because it is rapidly eliminated from the body, mainly erected when the inhaler exhales."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/r ... inter=true
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(Pronunciation Key)chlo·ro·form Listen: [ klôr-fôrm, klr- ]

n.

A clear, colorless, heavy, sweet-smelling liquid, CHCl3, used in refrigerants, propellants, and resins, as a solvent, and sometimes as an anesthetic. Chloroform, once widely used in human and veterinary surgery, has generally been replaced by less toxic, more easily controlled agents.
tr.v. chlo·ro·formed, chlo·ro·form·ing, chlo·ro·forms


To treat with chloroform to anesthetize, render unconscious, or kill.

To apply chloroform to.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/c/c0314900.html
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"It was May 22, 1978, and Jeffrey Ringall had recently returned from a winter vacation in Florida to his home in Chicago. He decided to reacquaint himself with the city by visiting New Town, a popular area of Chicago where many popular bars and discos could be found. While walking through the area, his path was blocked by a black Oldsmobile. The heavy-set driver leaned out from the window and complimented Ringall on his unseasonable tan. He continued to make small talk and then asked if Ringall wanted to share a joint with him while they rode around town.

Ringall was delighted to escape the cold and share a marijuana cigarette with the stranger. He hopped in the car and began to smoke with his friendly new acquaintance. Before they were half way through with the joint, the man grabbed Ringall and quickly shoved a rag over his face doused with chloroform. Ringall lost consciousness and only briefly reawakened a couple of times during the car ride. During his wakeful periods Ringall watched in a daze as street signs passed, trying to make sense of what was happening to him. Yet before he was able to understand where he was and what was happening, the stranger again covered his face with the chloroform-soaked rag and he passed out."

"Yet, he was fortunate to be alive. Ringall was one of the few victims of John Wayne Gacy, Jr. to have survived."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/gacy/gacymain.htm
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I was not thinking they were poisoned by it, maybe that it was just used to knock them out so there would be less of a struggle.It also could be inhaled, it need not have been ingested.

Allen @ Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:57 pm wrote:Can you tell me your source for the detection of chloroform back then?

I mostly use books and type with one finger.

I used the book On Death's Bloody Trail, by Brian Marriner, 1991, and inferences from trial reference and also common sense.

pg. 119:
Around 1864 "The state of knowledge in the field of forensic toxicology at this time was limited but improving...Those poisons which affect the oxygen-carrying capability of the blood - typically cyanide. Then the acids and alkalis which are corrosive and usually burn the mouth. Chloroform is one example."

pg. 121:
"Her husband Edwin [Bartlett] died on 1 January 1886 at their Pimlico home, a huge quantity of chloroform being found in his stomach. But there was no trace of any burns to the mouth or gullet."

--Chloroform seems to be considered a corrosive. The mouth could appear as if burned. A visual scan of the mouth, stomach etc would probably show the redness, inflammation of a corrosive property, if inhaled or ingested.

Also Trial, Wood, 994:
Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.

Kat @ Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:40 pm wrote:

Allen @ Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:57 pm wrote:Can you tell me your source for the detection of chloroform back then?

pg. 121:
"Her husband Edwin [Bartlett] died on 1 January 1886 at their Pimlico home, a huge quantity of chloroform being found in his stomach. But there was no trace of any burns to the mouth or gullet.

Well if you ingested it I can understand how it would irritate your stomach, but not if you inhaled it. Inhilation deals with the respiratory system.If you swallow great quantities, great quantities may also be found in the stomach.This is interesting that so much chloroform was found in the stomach but no burning of the mouth and such,when it most probably had been swallowed. But chloroform when inhaled works by depressing the central nervous system.From what I've read the burns may not appear if only a brief contact with the skin is made, and only small quantities of the chloroform are used.When you inhale it, it travels through the blood to other parts of the body.

"You asked how chloroform works. Basically you inhale it and the gas becomes partially dissolved in your blood. That gas and blood travels to your brain and somehow that puts the little neurons to sleep."

http://www.geocities.com/kimurob/cascad ... ology.html
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"When Chloroform is inhaled, up to 75% is retained in the body and nearly all ingested chloroform is retained.Althought chloroform is carried to all parts of the body, it tends to accumulate in tissues with high concentration of lipids or fats.The tissues with the highest concentration are adipose, brain, liver, kidney, and blood.Chloroform in metabolized in the body and the major end product is carbon dioxide.Studies have shown that nearly 96% of inhaled chloroform is exhaled through the lungs within 8 hours.Mainly as carbon dioxide and unchanged chloroform.Only a small amount leaves the body in urine and feces."

http://www.oversight.state.id.us/ov_lib ... chloroform'

It was my understanding upon reading the material I presented, that inhaling would also show irritation- to the throat and mouth especially, probably also the sinus.
The stomach would show if ingested -In simple terms, back then.
Also we are supposedly dealing with an amature (Lizzie) who doesn't know all about the effects or the proper administration of the poison and therefore it might be even easier to detect.

Were any of these areas checked and found to exhibit inflammation which may be consistant with chloroform? Or were they concentrating on signs of poisons that may have been ingested orally? If Lizzie purchased chloroform to supposedly kill a cat, maybe she was experimenting with it. That was four years prior to the murders, she had plenty of time to experiment. The book containing information on prussic acid could indicate maybe our Lizzie was trying to study up on such things.I am not sure I believe she bought it with intentions of killing a cat though.

If the *smallest* amount were used - just enough to subdue the victims helpless (to prevent physical resistance/screaming) rather than kill, would that amount still have been easily detected (visible mouth & nasal irritation)?

This is interesting. I have often wondered how anyone could have snuck up on Abby in that guest room (considering the floorplan!) and just whipped out an axe without her screaming and/or being chased around the room a little knowing that danger was at hand ... unless they were *very* quick and aggressive at the deed (which of course IS possible).

If Lizzie waltzed in with a pre-soaked chlorophorm hanky (that was freshly ironed oh so neatly - Lol) in her skirt pocket (all 19th c. skirts had side pockets) - that would have been quite handy. No fussing, fighting or screaming and taking chances on a scuffle being heard by Bridget.

The blows mainly being to the BACK of Abby's head - COULD she have been made unconscious first? If she were still busy making the bed, would not the RIGHT side of her head gotten the worst of it? Or in the face as she looked up to see someone's presense in the room (a natural reaction for most)? Unless she were busy looking intently out the window at the time, I can't see how all those blows hit her from behind.

But if she were hit with the hankie first - then she very well may have slid down onto the floor next to the bed. With the back of her head easily accessible. Hmmm ...

Hi!
I think an inexperienced chlorophormer would leave reddened burn-like marks on the face. If there was any struggle over the poison, there would be worse marks.
If it were Andrew we were discussing, because of the extent of his injuires, it might seem like this would not be noticed, or noted possibly?

I'm afraid the chloroform might affect the person applying it if there was a pre-soaked hankie involved, walking the length of the room and around the bed. That is my speculation.

Otherwise, Abby was hit in the facial /scalp area first with a hatchet. I'm not sure if one would apply chloroform, watch her sink, and then hit a glancing blow to the left scalp/ear area? Then turn her over? It's not quite making sense in a re-ennactment.

[quote="Kat @ Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:32 am"]I'm afraid the chloroform might affect the person applying it if there was a pre-soaked hankie involved, walking the length of the room and around the bed. quote]

John Wayne Gacy kept a chloroformed soaked rag in the car when he abducted one of his victims, and repeatedly smothered him with it when he seemed to be coming to during the car ride.

I think he was experienced with that substance. And did he keep it in something- like a jar or a plastic baggie? It wouldn't be left out, I don't think.

I haven't found anything on how he stored the rag, but the newspaper article said Lizzie was in the drug store and purchased the chloroform four years earlier. This would give her plenty of time to experiment with how it works. I've also read an interesting article that claims back then chloroform was used purposefully by some as a means of getting high. They sniffed it in small quantities to induce a high.Sort of like how teen agers inhale household cleaners and such, referred to as "huffing". I will have to look for it again and post the link. It was also used on rags to induce the patient to sleep during surgery, or administered to a woman during child birth to ease the pain. It was administered to Queen Victoria during child birth, if either of these lasted any great amount of time, would this mean the chloroform would have to be readministered more than once? I wonder if this produced burning around the mouth?

All I can say is that Lizzie probably wasn't experimenting on humans, so trying to poison a furry litte creature wouldn't exactly be giving her any experience.
It might just confuse her with dosages and such and squirming animals which claw and bite might not give her a correct idea on how to work it with a human.
(I'm only smiling trying to imagine this- in my mental image the creature always gets away...).
Otherwise, I forgot why we were discussing chloroform, anyway.

Well I don't know, in my opinion, I believe it could explain the lack of struggle. It was after all an anesthetic. And if it always produced burning of the skin when used, I do not believe it would have become so popular as an anestetic.

It was used as a anaesthetic when people would willingly inhale it via some sort of apparatus...

Doctors did not soak rags with it and smear it all over a patient's face long enough to knock them out.....

This was not always the case. It was used with a technique called the "open drop" method. A cloth was placed over the face, and the chloroform was directly administered to the cloth. This is how it was done with Queen Victoria.It shows an illustration on this link.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/victoria.html

And it is also cited in a biography of Snow.

"On April 7th, 1853, he administered chloroform to Her Majesty at the birth of the Prince Leopold. A note in his diary records the event.The inhalation lasted fifty-three minutes. The chloroform was given on a handkerchief, in fifteen, minim doses; and the Queen expressed herself as greatly relieved by the administration. He had previously been consulted on the occasion of the birth of Prince Arthur, in 1850, but had not been called in to render his services."

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/richardson3.html

but that was not enough to knock Vickie out...

I was trying to decide whether or not the direct contact with the skin would always produce the burning of the skin.I was not trying to make the point that it knocked her out.I am thinking of purchasing this book to answer any more of my questions.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 0750930985

I was in a used book store yesterday and the second book I picked up , the second picture I looked at was of the forced chloroforming of a victim!
Of course, it was a struggle depicted.

Laying a handkerchief over a face which is also lying down, with the opportunity to "tent" it, would or could keep the face from burning. Thanks for the pictures. It does show a "tenting" effect and a gathering of the sides to keep in the fumes.
Since the Queen was so fertile and later so into chloroform, she might put up with a misadministration or some facial irritation just for the benefit of its pain relief.

If this topic is about combining chloroforming with the use of a hatchet (Overuse actually)- then I don't agree mainly because the hatchet was overkill enough, but if we add this chloroform, the murders become very complicated. The answer is usually more simple than complicated. It also is 2 distinct MO's within the same killing. If you think there were 2 people involved in the murders at the same time, maybe...
It's an interesting theory but doesn't seem valid and is not anywhere in evidence, just in my opinion....

I think one quick wack of the hatchet would have ended or prevented any struggle quicker than any chloroform rag over the mouth. I cannot see Lizzie holding a rag over 200 lb. Abby's face or Andrew's. I think there may have been more of a fight that way, especially with Andrew.

But... Was that handkerchief that was found near Abby's elbow tested for chloroform? Perhaps Lizzie did chloroform her mom and after realizing how much of a struggle it was decided to just use the hatchet itself on her dad.

-1bigsteve (o:

*It wasn't her mom- it was her stepmom*

Reviving old threads is cool!

There is a lot of good stuff buried in the back pages. I'm learning a lot about the Borden case. Better than reading a book. All those photos of the barn, back and left side of Lizzie's house! I have been looking for photos like those for over thirty years and here they are! It's a gold mine for me.

I was getting some good info from the posts of someone named "beckygoddess" until I sadly discovered a couple of nights ago that she wasn't the person she claimed to be. It took me awhile to figure out what was going on. What a let down. I felt like I had discovered a huge chocolate bar only to find it filled with maggots. Bummer.

Maybe she will get her act together. She could be a real asset. She seems to know a lot about this case.

-1bigsteve (o:

I was going to proclaim how easy it is here now Missy/Allen is not here to argue with- temporarily- but I miss her and want her back!

Kat @ Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:11 pm wrote:I was going to proclaim how easy it is here now Missy/Allen is not here to argue with- temporarily- but I miss her and want her back!

You mean "Allen" is her alias? The one above? And Missy too? How many aliases did she have?

It's the Invasion of The Body Snatchers I tell ya!

-1bigsteve (o:

Yes, Allen is missed along with several other MIA's - Lydia, Tina-Kate, Doug and a few others.

Harry @ Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:31 pm wrote:Yes, Allen is missed along with several other MIA's - Lydia, Tina-Kate, Doug and a few others.

Thank you, Harry. It's kind of like walking through a mine field isn't it? Geeze!

-1bigsteve (o:

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

careful

I cannot echo Kat's suggestion enough on that one.

You mean "Allen" is her alias? The one above? And Missy too? How many aliases did she have?

It's the Invasion of The Body Snatchers I tell ya!

-1bigsteve (o:

What does it mater what name somone chooses to use for this forum ?? I'm not sure that anyone here uses their full birth name. Invasion of the Body Snatchers ? I guess I don't get the connection ? Maybe you are trying to be funny and I am too stupid to get it.


Tracy...


Tracy

tina-kate is alive and well. i talked to her last night, in fact.

she's not actually gone -- just not talking much.

If anyone cares to, they can click on a member's name and go to their profile. Scroll down and a lot have their names there.
I'm sure bigSteve was not born "1bigSteve"- right?

We are missing-- as in wanting them back:
Edisto, William, Tracy, Audrey, Melissa (Allen), Lydia/Mary, Doug, Christopher, Susan, and Augusta.

Harry and I were talking about it today. That these people are and have been wonderful members who are sort of MIA at the moment.

No paranoia involved.

Boy, the things that go on behind my back when my nose is buried in the archives.

I think something jumped the rails here. The aliases I was refering to in my post on page 1 at 11:49 are the ones used by the lady who posted under the name "beckygoddess." If I read the old posts correctly she was a lady who posted under several aliases including a male? I think she was from Arizona and had a tangle with Stefani over a book they bid on (biddercritter2). She seemed to know a lot about Lizzie. I just thought it odd that one person would post under so many aliases. Maybe it is a common practice, I don't know. I hope I got my facts straight. I was not refering to the aliases used by the regulars. I'm sorry if I knocked a scab off an old wound.

Actually, Kat, I was born with the name "1bigsteve." No, really! I'm just funning with you. Actually the "big" does not represent my physical size, even though I am big. I don't have an ego problem. It means "Brown eyed Georgia." But "begsteve" didn't sound too good so I changed the "e" to an "i" and came up with bigsteve. The ISP lady was on the line and I had to come up with a quick name. I looked around my office and saw Georgia Brown staring at me from the cover of her album and the "brown eyed Georgia" came up. She is one of my favorite singers and I came up with that name as my way to honor her talent and memory. Bigsteve was already taken so I put a "1" in front. I put the backward smile behind the name because I believe in kindness.

Oddly enough I get a lot of spam for weight loss programs...

By the way, what happened to these regulars, if I may ask? I noticed the forum has been a bit quiet lately. I hope everyone will be back soon.

If you need me I'll be buried in the archives...

-1 "brown eyed Georgia" steve (o:

Send some PMs to the people you miss. They probably don't even realize that they contribute so much to the forum.

Thanks BigSteve. I always wondered how some people get their "handle." I'm always very curious.

Missy finally wrote me what she's been up to, and I talked to Tracy who will post Friday what's been going on with her, and Audrey is still fighting her ruptured eardrum. William has been grieving, I hope Susan is planning a wedding , Mark had a new baby, Doug is lazy, Edisto's on vacation, Augusta's usually writing and I don't know where Christopher has got to...
Oh, and we're missing Stuart.

Don't forget "Most Haunted" on the Travel Channel Friday nights.
I have a crush on Derek.

I have been wondering about Audrey's ear drum. I went through ear trouble when I was a kid and believe me that is NO fun! I feel for her. I hope she starts feeling better soon and she and the others can get back with us. I was beginning to think it was my after-shave that ran them off...

-1bigsteve (o:

"The book of life is brief, and once a page is read, all but love is dead."

Oh, and we're missing Stuart.

Thank you Kat! I'm around, but haven't had much to offer lately. I'm rereading Rebello at the moment.

Poor Susan must be feeling a little like the invisible woman. She's not really missing -- her last post was less than two days ago! She's so sweet and unassuming though -- maybe you lost her in the shuffle?

No I didn't lose her and I know she's posting, but she is barely here. I'm hoping it's because of good things.
I know she is making the effort and I totally thank her for that!
BTW: When I said that about Doug, I was trying to get his attention. He did have a vaccy and he had computer woes as I have, and Missy and Tina-Kate and Augusta.

Thanks for showing up, Stuart!

Hi all, thats so sweet. Yes, I'm still around and stop in and have been reading the posts, I've just been exhausted from work. I'm completely overwhelmed all day and can't seem to put together a coherent thought to post by evening. I feel totally burnt out. The good thing is I'll be taking a much needed, much overdue vacation in October.

Ooo! Where are you going?
Fall River?
The desert?
Europe?

San Francisco to stay with an old friend of my fiance's. She lives with her husband in a house right in the city, so, we can take the Bart to get around. Can't wait to go to Chinatown again, oh, and we are driving up and will stop at the Winchester mansion, my honey has never seen it!

San Francisco is a wonderful place to visit, Susan. I haven't been up there sight seeing since 1964. I remember it like it was yesterday. The cable cars, the ships, the crabs cooking in those pots and that wax museum! What blood and gore! It was lovely.

I'll be packed and you will pick me up around 10:00ish? All kidding aside, you people have fun. Let us know how it goes when you you get back. We will want details.

By the way, I noticed you are an artist. What medium do you use?

Enjoy your trip.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yay! San Francisco!
My two favorite cities are San Francisco and Charleston!
But I haven't been to San Francisco since 1982.

bigSteve, you were there when there were hippies?
Wait a minute: hippies were about 1967?

We lived in California, leaving there is 1965 and the Beach Boys and surfing were still "King."

No, I don't remember any hippies, Kat. Everyone still looked "normal" at that time. I remember everyone being well groomed. It was a very pleasant warm sunny day in the winter. No wind at all. I came back in the summer of 1966 and nearly froze to death! The old saying, "The coldest winter I ever experienced was a summer in San Francisco" is so true!

The last time I was there, in the main part of the city, was 1986. A friend of mine was going to be on TV and I was trying to find the TV studio. Those one way streets, the gazzilion mis-leading road signs and steep hills nearly drove me crazy . She didn't show up until the following week. All that crazy driving for nothing. Next time someone else will drive!

The area of the city, in the Cow Palace area, is run down. It's a shame. Trash in the streets and bars on the doors and windows. It would be nice to see everyone join together and clean it up. That city would really shine.

I've never been to Charleston although my dad probably did. He was raised on the east coast.

I remember The Beach Boys, they had a cool sound. I was a big fan of The Lennon Sisters and The Supremes at that time.

Oh, the memories...

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve @ Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:05 pm wrote:San Francisco is a wonderful place to visit, Susan. I haven't been up there sight seeing since 1964. I remember it like it was yesterday. The cable cars, the ships, the crabs cooking in those pots and that wax museum! What blood and gore! It was lovely.

I'll be packed and you will pick me up around 10:00ish? All kidding aside, you people have fun. Let us know how it goes when you you get back. We will want details.

By the way, I noticed you are an artist. What medium do you use?

Enjoy your trip.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yes, San Francisco is a beautiful city, I just can't take that weather year round though, otherwise I'd probably live there. I had an ex-boyfriend who moved there for a year with his company, he would send me a plane ticket to come visit on the weekends. His co-workers showed us all the hotspots, it was wonderful! I even saw Armistead Maupin on the ferry to Sausalito one day, that was pretty neat.

Artwise, I was trained in oils and acrylics and had quite a bit of fiber art; weaving and such. At work I mostly work with markers for storyboarding and for package design and such, the skys the limit; gouache, color pencil, watercolor, etc. I hardly have the time or energy to work on my own stuff at home.

Woof! Those markers have quite a KICK!