Lizzie Borden Society Forum

No one involved in the Borden saga fascinates me more than Alice Russell, and that includes Lizzie. I believe that if we could know what Alice knew, there would be no mystery. How she stayed in the Borden house (albeit nervously) the night of the murders is beyond me. How her conscience forced her to tell of the dress burning, knowing that it would estrange her from the Borden sisters, speaks well of her honesty and integrity. I would welcome all thoughts regarding Ms. Russell and her importance to the case.

Yes, the night she stayed in the house - in the Borden couple's room I believe - She told how she was scared witless by a stick, of the cudgel kind, for use as a weapon, placed by the bed. She seems to mean she believed it was placed there as a warning to herself. Now the source for this is a good one & you will know it - but I have momentarily forgotten it ! What do you make of Alice blabbing this? Its materialisation seems to have had a shock effect on her. Do you think Russell is implying Lizzie put it there?

I'm sorry, Father Jack, but being one of the 'stuffed shirts who have their knickers in a bunch', as you indicated in your first post, I do not wish to share my thoughts regarding Ms. Russell with you, that is not until you make a public apology to the members of this forum.

Dear twinsrwe, my post was not intended to offend anyone. It was a result of reading a thread that seemed to be a lot of hand wringing over the business intentions of the B&B and Maplecroft owners. If they choose to go the bogus paranormal route, at least they have done the properties justice. My apologies to any one who may feel personally offended. Such was not my intent. I have been a student of the Borden case for well over 50 years, and am not a newbie to this subject. Do I wish these properties were marketed differently? You bet! But they need to do what will, for them, yield a profitable venture. Again, my apologies to anyone whom I've offended. I had been a member of this board for quite some time in the past, and have only just re-registered.

Father Jack wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 8:54 pm No one involved in the Borden saga fascinates me more than Alice Russell, and that includes Lizzie. I believe that if we could know what Alice knew, there would be no mystery. How she stayed in the Borden house (albeit nervously) the night of the murders is beyond me. How her conscience forced her to tell of the dress burning, knowing that it would estrange her from the Borden sisters, speaks well of her honesty and integrity. I would welcome all thoughts regarding Ms. Russell and her importance to the case.

Alice Russell is fascinating in many ways. She seems to have been purposefully made a central character to this case by Lizzie. First, Lizzie goes to see her that Wednesday to talk about her father having enemies, and to tell her about the robbery at the house. In my opinion, Lizzie seems to be setting the stage.

Then the day of the murders she actually sends for Alice Russell. She sends for the one person who has heard all of the information about Andrew's enemies. Who knows about the robbery.

Alice seems fiesty. Like a bit of a wild card. I think Lizzie was expecting her to go along with the dress burning without questioning it. I believe Lizzie set her up to corroborate her alibi. But instead Alice put her in some hot water.

Father Jack, there are very few Forum members still posting. I’m one of them and I was not offended. To my own way of thinking, you are owed the apology. There was no call to talk of 'mental health issues'.

Without plowing through all my material, I think the account of Alice being frightened by Andrew's cudgel may have come from the witness statements. or possibly in the excellent Proceedings, the Legend 100 years after the crime, the 1992 conference at Bristol Community College. However, I stand to be corrected.

Father Jack wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 3:43 pm Without plowing through all my material, I think the account of Alice being frightened by Andrew's cudgel may have come from the witness statements. or possibly in the excellent Proceedings, the Legend 100 years after the crime, the 1992 conference at Bristol Community College. However, I stand to be corrected.

Alice Russell talks about the "round whittled stick" that she found under Abby and Andrew's bed at the inquest. Her testimony can be found on pages 152-153.

Yes InterestedReader.

If I offended you, you have my sincere apology. I forget and should have known better than to use mental illness as an attack card. I have taken care of and dealt with a family member with severe mental illness for many years. I still deal with it today and in the past had to take leaves from work to attend to emergencies. To anyone who has dealt with mental illness or has experienced it first hand, it is a heart breaking and serious matter. I regret any discomfort that I may have bestowed on you. I understand how you feel. I'll say no more about it.

KGDevil wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 3:27 pm Alice Russell is fascinating in many ways. She seems to have been purposefully made a central character to this case by Lizzie. First, Lizzie goes to see her that Wednesday to talk about her father having enemies, and to tell her about the robbery at the house. In my opinion, Lizzie seems to be setting the stage.

Then the day of the murders she actually sends for Alice Russell. She sends for the one person who has heard all of the information about Andrew's enemies. Who knows about the robbery.

Alice Russell had lived next door to Lizzie for so many years - Is it possible she was her one significant friend? I absolutely accept what you say, that the Wednesday visit seems a clumsy attempt at adumbration, & the immediate sending for Alice at the murder-scene a gambit to bide for time & then secure her 'spokesperson' as it were. But Lizzie may have had a closer friendship with Alice in the absence of many others? I've found that issue hard to determine. The 'Marion fishing party' bunch would support Lizzie; one went so far as to withold a potentially incriminating letter. Other people said Lizzie was unpopular. Also, spending that Wednesday evening with Alice was not a lone occurrence. In Lizzie’s Inquest testimony we learn that two weeks before the murders she was likewise coming "...home from Miss Russell's one night..."

When Alice Russell was interviewed in old age she made a repeated caveat "I don’t say she was guilty, mind." And yet she explained that if Lizzie did murder Andrew and Abby Borden, it was understandable. They refused to finance the cultured life she aspired to, so understandably, she killed them.
I find that a really weird opinion .

Father Jack wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 2:50 pm Dear twinsrwe, my post was not intended to offend anyone. It was a result of reading a thread that seemed to be a lot of hand wringing over the business intentions of the B&B and Maplecroft owners. If they choose to go the bogus paranormal route, at least they have done the properties justice. My apologies to any one who may feel personally offended. Such was not my intent. I have been a student of the Borden case for well over 50 years, and am not a newbie to this subject. Do I wish these properties were marketed differently? You bet! But they need to do what will, for them, yield a profitable venture. Again, my apologies to anyone whom I've offended. I had been a member of this board for quite some time in the past, and have only just re-registered.

Thank you Father Jack; I accept your apology. I want to also thank you for stating where you were coming from when you typed up your reply to the thread titled, The cheapening of Maplecroft. I’m just sorry that things got out of hand so quickly.

The new owners of Maplecroft, are going to do what they are going to do. I just find it sad that they feel the need to go the route of paranormal activity in a house that has no previous history of such activity, in order to draw people in, when Maplecroft, in and of itself, will draw people to it like a magnet, because it was the kind of house that Lizzie longed for, and it is located on ‘the hill’. But, again, this is just my opinion.

I can tell from your other posts that you are very knowledgeable about the Borden case. I look forward to more of your posts.

KGDevil wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Father Jack wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 3:43 pm Without plowing through all my material, I think the account of Alice being frightened by Andrew's cudgel may have come from the witness statements. or possibly in the excellent Proceedings, the Legend 100 years after the crime, the 1992 conference at Bristol Community College. However, I stand to be corrected.

Alice Russell talks about the "round whittled stick" that she found under Abby and Andrew's bed at the inquest. Her testimony can be found on pages 152-153.

Alice was at the mirror tidying her hair when she noticed it either by the bed or poking from beneath the bed. My memory is, she says she hadn’t noticed it earlier in the day. I thought she was saying, it must have materialised during that day. And implying, Lizzie must have placed it there. This stick had quite an effect on Alice. I'm trying to find the blessed passage . Sorry folks.

Thank you Twins, I feel we are on a better footing than before. As I previously mentioned, I am a septuagenarian who began my fascination with all things Borden when I was about 12 or 13. I have had friendly correspondence with others who are knowledgeable about the Bordens, including one who is very much a pariah on this board and to Admin in particular. No matter, I have no dog in that fight and do not take sides in personal disputes or clashes of ego. It is energy wasted. I will gladly supply my biographical information to anyone interested. My interest in the Borden case began when my father gave me a copy of Radin.

InterestedReader wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 10:57 am

KGDevil wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Father Jack wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 3:43 pm Without plowing through all my material, I think the account of Alice being frightened by Andrew's cudgel may have come from the witness statements. or possibly in the excellent Proceedings, the Legend 100 years after the crime, the 1992 conference at Bristol Community College. However, I stand to be corrected.

Alice Russell talks about the "round whittled stick" that she found under Abby and Andrew's bed at the inquest. Her testimony can be found on pages 152-153.

Alice was at the mirror tidying her hair when she noticed it either by the bed or poking from beneath the bed. My memory is, she says she hadn’t noticed it earlier in the day. I thought she was saying, it must have materialised during that day. And implying, Lizzie must have placed it there. This stick had quite an effect on Alice. I'm trying to find the blessed passage . Sorry folks.

Alice Russell inquest testimony pages 152-153:

Q. That is one reason why I postponed it as long as I could. Is there any other fact that you can tell me that you have not told me?
A. The morning of the funeral I went out to do some errands; and when I came back my hair was tumbled, and I took my dress waist off, and combed my hair. When I had gotten through I put my waist on again, and hadnearly finished it, and I turned, and I saw something in under the bed that frightened me almost to pieces.
Q. You were sleeping in the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That big stick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It is the one you gave tothe marshal, the round whittled stick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you been sleeping in the house every night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You slept there that night?
A. Yes Sir, that is what frightened me so much, it was in my room.
Q. That was the room Mr. and Mrs. Borden occupied?
A. Yes Sir. I occupied that when I was there.
Q. When you went into the daughter’s room, did you have to go down stairs and come up?
A. You dont have to if the other side was unlocked.
Q. After the tragedy was it unlocked so you couldgo through?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was open then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After the tragedy the door was unlocked?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So when you wanted to go to Lizzie or Emma’s, you went in through?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you first see that stick?
A. I think between nine and ten. I don't think I could have been gone longer than that.
Q. It was not while you were at the funeral?
A. No Sir. When I came back, my clothes were there, my dress was there, I went into this room I had occupiedto change my dress, and turned, when I saw it.
Q. Where was it exactly?
A. At the head of the bed.
Q. Under?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How much in sight?
A. So that I saw it as I turned.
Q. Had it been there before?
A. I had not seen it before.
Q. Had you done, what they say women do?
A. No, I had not done that.
Q. Had not looked under the bed?
A. No Sir.
Q. So it may have been under the bed all the time?
A. Yes. I think in my frightened condition, as I look at it now, it might have been there. Then I was terribly
alarmed, because I felt as if in some way it implicated me.
Q. About as much as it implicates me, just about.
A. Yes, as I look at itnow.
Q. When you saw it, it was plainly visible?
A. Yes, I saw the end of it.
Q. How much was it out? Indicate by your fan.
A. It was not out from under the bed at all. I could see a little ways under the bed.
Q. It had no flap hanging down, a modern french bedstead?
A. It was not a french bedstead; it had no varlance.
Q. You would have been likely to have seen it before that if it had been in the same place?
A. I thought so.
Q. Did you ever find out what it was?
A. I think it was something that her father had kept in the house.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I told it to Detective Handscomb; and he asked Emma. I don't think the girl knew anything about that I foundit.
Q. Is there any other fact that has to do with this matter that you can tell us, that you think of? My inquiry isnot directed to, or at, or against anybody, or in favor of anybody.
A. I don't know of anything.

Excellent! Could it be that Alice's nervous condition was due to her knowing the murderer was still in the house? She doesn't seem to be a jittery person otherwise. Think of staying in the parents room while their bodies lay below! It took a lot of courage on her part.

Father Jack wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 3:30 pm Excellent! Could it be that Alice's nervous condition was due to her knowing the murderer was still in the house? She doesn't seem to be a jittery person otherwise. Think of staying in the parents room while their bodies lay below! It took a lot of courage on her part.

Alice seems to unravel a little after arriving at the house the day of the murders. I think that's why her testimony has so many issues. I believe the woman was in shock. She'd lived next to the Borden family for years. She'd been in their home as a guest. Lizzie had given her that whole spiel about Andrew having enemies and seeing strange men. Then she's called to the scene of their brutal double homicide. This murder had taken place in the middle of the day, as had the daylight robbery that Lizzie was so keen to fill her in on that Wednesday, and I think Alice would have been feeling very anxious about staying there. I think that's a natural reaction. I do believe that staying there as long as she did, and telling the truth like she did about the dress burning, took a lot of courage.