Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I've been absent from this forum for about 6 years, so please be kind. There just came a point where I got over-saturated with Lizzie, if any can relate.

Something drew me back in, and I was fixated on the note Lizzie claimed about Abby visiting a sick friend.

This is one of the biggest sticking points for me, because Emma & family had taken an ad out in the News, that ran for days, asking for the sick friend AND/OR the messenger to come forward and no one came forward. No note was ever found. No one ever saw the note, or knew about the alleged sick friend, except for what came from Lizzie.

Lizzie obviously lied about Abby leaving the house while she was bleeding out profusely upstairs. Am I missing something or is this a pretty simple example that she lied about something very profound to the case? Lying doesn't make you a murderer, unless the lie you tell keeps others from discovering your victim too soon.

I’m not sure that Lizzie lied. That said, Dr. Bowen burned papers in the stove.

Per the witness statement by the police:
“The Doctor then said “it does not amount to anything”, and taking tHe lid off the kitchen stove, he dropped the pieces in. There was very little fire in the stove, and the ashes which were on top looked as though paper had been burned there.”

Could the note have been the paper that was “on top”?

No one coming forward is not really a surprise to me - many potential witnesses refused to get involved.

Again from the witness statements: “Mrs. Mary Wyatt, No. 91 Second street. This woman lives over Dr. Bowen. It is she who first told Mr. M. Chace, L. Winslow, and several others who were standing in front of Wade’s, about the crime. She dodged us for a week or more; and when finally seen, positively refused to be interviewed.”

The note is a true mystery!

Thanks for your input, BeeQueen.

I can certainly see some not wanting to get involved; we have those today and throughout the decades in between. But the messenger, too? Possible, I suppose, but with the timing of both deceased and the note story told only by Lizzie, it's hard for me to consider the note anything other than fabricated.

But you raise such as valid point about privacy and the fact that there were many potential witnesses that refused to get involved or refused to be interviewed. I've always assumed that people of past generations had greater respect for authority period, and refusing to be interviewed would almost unheard of.

Just because Lizzie is the only one stating a note, that doesn’t mean that a note didn’t exist,
or that Abby lied about getting a note so that Abby could make a quick exit. Lizzie said that she herself never saw a note, but that Abby said Abby received a note. Maybe too that a note is a verbal message and not physical.

According to Lizzie, Abby went to the market nearly every morning. Also, Lizzie stated that Abby kept her “best cape” in the guest room. Maybe Abby intended to put the pillow shams on, and grab her “best cape” to go out, but was killed beforehand. There was paper in the stove - maybe Abby tossed the note into the stove. Or maybe the killer took the note to wipe off the weapon.

In any case, because Abby went to the market nearly every day, there would be no need to fabricate a note. Instead it would be like “where’s Mrs Borden?” “I don’t know - I assumed she went to market as she does nearly every day.” Lizzie did not need to fabricate a note at all; this indicates to me that Abby did state that Abby received a note.

Welcome back Cheryl! I am glad you have returned to the forum and are posting again.

In Shelley Dziedzic’s blog titled, Lizzie Borden : Warps & Wefts, I found the following information:

It’s unfortunate the Borden family threw notes and letters away so readily. The famous note sent to Abby Borden asking her to come visit a sick friend went missing, even though a reward of $500 dollars was offered for information about the sick friend’s name, who wrote the note, and who delivered it. It was suggested by Lizzie that it may have been burned up (in the kitchen woodstove as that was the only fire in August).

Source: http://tinyurl.com/y9tn5lmu

$500 in 1892 is equivalent in purchasing power to $13,854.18 in 2018. Source: http://tinyurl.com/yc3rnvcv

I believe there probably were some potential witnesses who refused to get involved, but I have a really hard time believing that the person who sent the alleged note to Abby, would refuse a $13,854.18 reward for coming forward. That is a lot of money to refuse, just because they did not want to get involved!

Personally, I do not believe there ever was a note.

There were many who wouldn’t say anything. I just watched a show on ID where the mother wouldn’t say anything about her husband killing people or even beating her daughter - and this was in today’s time. Can you imagine what women had to face in 1890?

More witness statements:

• “Elizabeth M. Johnson, No. 24 Ridge street. ‘I have said all I think I should about that letter.’”

• “I visited Miss Lizzie Johnson at Myricks on Saturday. She refused to make known to me the Lizzie Borden on the day of the Borden murder, until she had consulted Mr. Jennings. I talked with her for two hours, but was unable to make her change her mind. She met Mr. Jennings Saturday night. I saw her again today, when she informed me that Mr. Jennings told her she need not tell me the contents of the letter if she did not want to; and she did not want to.”

• “I have seen the other girls who were at Marion at the time. None of them will talk.”

• “In company with Inspector J. Ryder of Station One I went to all the wholesale dealers in peddlers supplies, who are Jews themselves. They, not only do not know any one of that name, but are willing to make affidavit that they do not believe any such man lives in this state. Capt. Cain of Station One put four men to work on the Jewish Section, who made house to house canvass, using up three days, and this canvass failed to reveal anybody by the name of Robinsky. Everywhere in Police Circles the Robinsky letter was considered a “fake” pure and simple.”

So, many people wouldn’t talk, and some (like the “Jews”) wouldn’t elaborate beyond the exact question (such as, “Do you mean Roboski?”).

Don’t get me started on Pierce or Piece - seems to be a lot of hidden truths there.

I just watched an excellent movie, Dolores Claiborne, with Kathy Bates. This was set in recent times and everyone hid the truth, even from themselves.

I’m on the opposite side of the fence; I believed that Abby said something about a note to Lizzie; Lizzie never saw the note. Whether the note actually existed or not is a question for Abby.

One more thing - the note was addressed by the defense in its closing statement. The defense reiterated Mrs. Churchill's testimony where Churchill stated that Bridget told Churchill that Abby discussed receiving a note (discussed while Abby dusting the dining room) and that Abby “hurried off.” Abby did not tell Bridget who was sick: “She didn’t tell me where she was going although she generally does.” (Starts on page 367 of Testimony vol. 1) The lawyer asked again if Bridget said it and not Lizzie and Churchill stated Bridget.

The defense gives a good overview of the note. (Testimony vol 2, page 1652).

twinsrwe wrote: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:04 pm Welcome back Cheryl! I am glad you have returned to the forum and are posting again.

In Shelley Dziedzic’s blog titled, Lizzie Borden : Warps & Wefts, I found the following information:

It’s unfortunate the Borden family threw notes and letters away so readily. The famous note sent to Abby Borden asking her to come visit a sick friend went missing, even though a reward of $500 dollars was offered for information about the sick friend’s name, who wrote the note, and who delivered it. It was suggested by Lizzie that it may have been burned up (in the kitchen woodstove as that was the only fire in August).

Source: http://tinyurl.com/y9tn5lmu

$500 in 1892 is equivalent in purchasing power to $13,854.18 in 2018. Source: http://tinyurl.com/yc3rnvcv

I believe there probably were some potential witnesses who refused to get involved, but I have a really hard time believing that the person who sent the alleged note to Abby, would refuse a $13,854.18 reward for coming forward. That is a lot of money to refuse, just because they did not want to get involved!

Personally, I do not believe there ever was a note.

Thanks Twinsrwe for your kindness! Glad to be back. Always had a fascination with this case and was one of those weird people that had stayed overnight with their husband and younger kids. This was YEARS ago, but my kids remember the tension; maybe not the best parental decision -- 4 people in the full bed Abby/Andrew bed = no sleep. Does LeeAnn (was that her name) still run the B&B?

You're welcome, Cheryl. I have also been fascinated with this case since I was a child. It sort of grabs ahold of you, and draws you in. Most of us have taken a break at times, but sooner or later we come back, if we can.

Oh, no, your poor kids! There is no way for you and your husband could have known ahead of time that staying overnight at the bed and breakfast would affect your kids the way it did.

Yes, Lee Ann still manages the B&B ( https://lizzie-borden.com/ ), and her partner, Donald Woods, recently purchased Maplecroft; it was purchased on February 2, 2018. Here is the article that was in the Fall River Herald regarding the purchase of Lizzie's grand mansion, Maplecroft: http://tinyurl.com/ya4k3hgh

As you may recall, mbhenty and Stefani live in the Davenport House, which is next door to Maplecroft. There are several threads regarding Maplecroft, on the forum here, there is even one showing the rooms inside the house! Kristee Bates, the previous owner did a fantastic job of renovating the inside. Mbhenty, does a magnificent job of keeping us informed of the happenings at Maplecroft. Here is the latest thread about the renovations taking place at Maplecroft: http://tinyurl.com/y7swp96x

Mbhenty was a caretaker of Maplecroft, here is a thread of his thoughts when he returned the keys: http://tinyurl.com/y7wvx9ws

All six of the fireplaces at Maplecroft are shown in this thread: http://tinyurl.com/yavt6ftj

For a truly huge surprise, Stefani placed all of the ‘original’ Lizzie Borden Hatchet issues online with free access, for us to enjoy: http://tinyurl.com/y83w9u3m

Thanks for all the information, Twinsrwe, much of which I didn't know and so now I have plenty of reading to do.

LOL, the kids survived. We stayed at The Stanley and a few other notable spots with a history after the Borden home, so they eventually developed a taste for psychological thrills. (I drew the line at Villisca; although I'd still like to get out there one day.)

BeeQueen wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:05 pm One more thing - the note was addressed by the defense in its closing statement. The defense reiterated Mrs. Churchill's testimony where Churchill stated that Bridget told Churchill that Abby discussed receiving a note (discussed while Abby dusting the dining room) and that Abby “hurried off.” Abby did not tell Bridget who was sick: “She didn’t tell me where she was going although she generally does.” (Starts on page 367 of Testimony vol. 1) The lawyer asked again if Bridget said it and not Lizzie and Churchill stated Bridget.

The defense gives a good overview of the note. (Testimony vol 2, page 1652).

Well now that's pretty interesting.

Remember, the front door may have opened many times.

“A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.” (Witness Statements, page 2, https://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-c ... sState.pdf)

There are a few discussions in this forum regarding this statement and other statements regarding possible visitors to the Borden house on August 4,1892. One of these people. or someone else, could have brought the note.