Lizzie Borden Society Forum

When Emma returned from Fairhaven she displayed a total lack of interest in questioning Bridget on events at the house . From the Inquest, page 113:

Q. ... When you got home, was she [Bridget] at home?
A. Thursday night, yes sir.
Q. What did she tell you about it?
A. She did not tell me anything. I dont remember asking her but one question, two questions.
Q. What was that, please?
A. I asked her if she would stay with us.
Q. If the other one has no more to do with this matter than that, I dont care for it.
A. I asked her if she saw any boy come with a note. I do not remember asking her any other questions."

Later, that same page:

"Q. After you got home that night, you did not hear Maggie say anything about where she was when the thing happened?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nor have any talk with her at all?
A. No Sir."

That I find very curious. Bridget was only one of two people in or about the house at the time of the murders. I should think Emma would have been asking her all kinds of questions.

Unless, perhaps, she was afraid of the answers she might receive.

Hi Harry,

If you view Maggie and Bridget as two separate people the whole thing takes on different meaning. In the first reference you use she was referring to a conversation with Bridget. I didn't check your reference to see if it actually referred back to the specific name Bridget but assume it does. In the second reference she answers very truthfully that she had had no discussion with Maggie, who was gone by the time she got home. In that case she would have answered both direct questions with absolute truth! It was the DA's assumption that Maggie and Bridget were one and the same, accepting the earlier cover story as truthful. All assumptions from that point on could be false. But answers regarding the two names by other witnesses could be absolutely truthful while giving the appearance of contradicting themselves.

Gramma

This is creepy.
I did a search for the word "Maggie" in Lizzie's inquest testimony and it's all over the place starting when Lizzie came down stairs in the morning.
But the word "Bridget" shows up only once, by the questioner...
And when the name "Sullivan" is used once (by the questioner), is when Lizzie breaks a bit and says "I don't know what your name is."

Perhaps Emma didn't afford the help the same courtesies Lizbeth did!

Seriously-- it does seem to me that if Emma had an idea Lizzie did do it-- she didn't want to face it or ackowledge it in any way.....

Of course she may have truly believed it..

Radin's "Lizzie Borden, The Untold Story", paperback edition, page 229:

"Twenty years after the murders, an enterprising Boston reporter managed to obtain an interview with Emma. "The happenings in the French Street house that caused me to leave I must refuse to talk about." Emma said. "I did not go until conditions became absolutely unbearable." But while Emma no longer spoke to Lizzie and was completely estranged from her, she warmly defended her sister against the murder charge. "Often it has occurred to me how strange is the fact that no one save Lizzie was ever brought to trial . . . as for her being guilty I say, 'No' and decidedly, 'No.' Here is the strongest thing that has impressed me of Lizzie's innocence. The authorities never found the ax or the implement or whatever it was that figured in the killing. If Lizzie had done that deed, she could never have hidden the instrument of death so the police could never find it." In the same interview Emma stated, "Time and again she has avowed her innocence to me and I believe her."

Inquest/Russell P148 (55)

Q. Did she tell you anything about where to look for her?
A. No Sir. Then I remember of Maggie and Mrs. Churchill starting, and Maggie says “O, I cant go through that
room”. Dr. Bowen says “get me a sheet, and I will cover Mr. Borden over”. They started and went after that.
Then when they came down I remember Mrs. Churchill saying “O, Mrs. Borden” this way. Whatever she said
or did gave me that impression that she had gone too. I did not then know either of them were murdered. I
supposed it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.

****************

Alice, the same woman who couldn't live with herself for not telling something she was NEVER spedifically asked about (dress burning) refers to Bridget as Maggie.

Audrey, you won't believe it but I was looking at that very thing myself just the other day, I was trying to find out what other people, besides Lizzie and Emma, called Bridget.

I looked at Mrs. Churchill's testiimony at the Inquest, Preliminary and Trial and not once did she refer to Bridget as Maggie.

If you look at Alice's Inquest testimony she starts out calling her Bridget and then switches to Maggie (page 147). In fact she switches in mid answer:

"Q. What was the first that you saw or observed, or heard, of this tragedy?
A. I think It was about quarter past eleven when I saw Bridget coming up the steps, and my work is so I can see any one coming up the steps, where I was at work. I knew there was trouble because Lizzie told me Mr. and Mrs. Borden were sick the night before, very sick, so the first impression I got was that somebody was sick there.
Q. She told you Tuesday night they were sick?
A. Yes Sir. I stepped to the door, and I says “what is it Bridget, are they worse”, or Maggie. She says, “yes, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead.” I dont know whether she said “come over”. I dont remember what she said. I said “I will come right over as soon as I change my dress; which I did."

I haven't had a chance to look at Alice's Preliminary and Trial testimony yet.

Uncle John should be interesting. I know one time he simply referred to her as "the girl".

Harry...

Great minds think alike!

I have a program that turns PDF into a word document and it makes it really easy to search, copy, paste-- etc.

One of the main advantages I have to mooching Thayne's outdated (one year old!) office computers is that they are filled with professional software... If I knew how to use it all-- why there is no telling what I could do!

I remembered that Knowlton said flat out, *I call her "Maggie"* or something like that:

Inquest
Emma
113
Q. How long has Maggie worked for you? I call her Maggie.
A. Her name is Bridget.
Q. Did she go by the name of Maggie?
A. My sister and I called her Maggie.
Q. How long had she worked for you?
A. I think it is three years this Fall; it may be four.

I recall he did it with Morse as well:

Inquest
Morse
105
Q. Tell me please, as near as you can, who you saw there that you can name, when you got into the house?
A. Why, the first two that were right together, were a man named Sawyer, and this servant girl, Bridget something.
Q. Maggie we will call her.
A. Yes. The next I recognized was Dr. Bowen. There was such an excitement, and I was nerved up, I saw a number. I noticed Dr. Bowen right away.

I always wondered what was Knowlton's *thing* calling Bridget Maggie. What was the reason?

Was Bridgets middle name Margaret? I think I read that in the archives.

http://genealogy.about.com/library/bl_nicknames.htm

On this site I found that Maggie is a commonly known nickname for the name Margaret. Could it be a nickname that those who became familiar with her used based on her middle name?

Coincidence, today at Real Estate office I got a
cold-call from an Asian (chinese?) woman, I could
barely understand her, looking for a house to buy.
In frustration with me asking her to please spell
her name, she said "just call me Maggie". Whew that was a relief. I wonder if Maggie is a generic
name that other countries use as we would call
someone "buddy"??

30. "Re: The root of "Maggie?""
Posted by harry on Aug-6th-03 at 5:33 PM
In response to Message #29.

If "Some" said Bridget's middle name was Maggie they are not correct. She had no middle name.

She was born in March 1864, (some say 1866) to Eugene and Margaret O'Leary O'Sullivan in Billerough, County Cork, Ireland. She emigrated to the U.S. in 1883. There is an extensive article on her in the April 1996 LBQ by Riobard O'Dwyer in collaboration with the current editor of the LBQ, Maynard F. Bertole

*************

Harry's post from:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... dunnit.htm

It goes on with some interesting posts!

Recalling the Nellie McHenry letter to Hilliard supposedly claiming she had an *Interview* with Bridget, in The Knowlton Papers, Aug. 25th, 1892 pg. 34:

..."Bridget felt sick at her stomach & had a bad headache
after she finished the windows she went upstairs, because she was sick and laid down accross the foot of her own bed, she did not go to sleep but heard the clock strike eleven got up and looked at her own clock thought it would soon be time to go down stairs to get the regular noon meal it didnot seem but a few minutes, when Miss Lizzie called Maggie come down father is dead go for Dr. Bowen (Bridget was called Maggie) Bridget was so frightened she did not look at Mr. Borden but ran out for the Dr...."

--I think it's the only time in Mrs. McHenry's letter that she uses the name *Maggie* for Bridget, and that is to quote Lizzie and then specify that Bridget is Maggie.

In the Witness Statements, Medley, pg. 28, uses the name "Maggie."
..."She said she was up stairs in the barn; and on coming into the house, found her father all cut and bleeding on the lounge. She then called Maggie, and then Mrs. Churchill. She did not have any idea who could have done it."...

It's the only *Maggie* which comes up in a word search of The Witness Statements!

I just did a search on the name Maggie and the 1800s and came up with two instances of the name that were in use.

A Maggie May was a term for a prostitute, though I don't think either of the Borden girls were that knowledgeable or cruel.

And the other was this: A film made in 2002, The Magdalene Sisters, told the sad story of the "maggies" of Ireland. They got that nickname from Mary Magdalene, a revealing story in itself. The gospels mention only one fact of Mary Magdalene's past, that Jesus had driven seven demons from her. Nevertheless, a tradition grew that Mary Magdalene must have been the same woman as the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet with her hair. Hence when a strict order of nuns agreed to take in young women who had become pregnant out of wedlock, they labeled the fallen girls "maggies."

Here is more on the Magdalen Laundries:

It is the story of thousands of Ireland's women...judged "sinners" by the cruel Church-driven society of the 1800's through present day. Their crime? Bearing children out of wedlock...leaving abusive husbands or home situations. The punishment? A lifetime of "penitence" spent in the service of the Sisters of Charity, Mercy, Good Shepherd or other orders, performing domestic chores...harsh, thankless chores such as laundering prison uniforms, cooking, cleaning and caring for elderly nuns or their aging peers, still trapped behind the walls of Ireland's numerous convent laundries, industrial schools and the like.

They are "The Magdalenes," ironically called after Mary the Magdalene, who served her Jesus loyally and was rewarded with his forgiveness and love. No such rewards exist for these "penitents." They were told to forever hide their shame inside these walls, work under harsh, spartan conditions, driven unmercifully by the sisters and often abused by them as well. It is a story Ireland has every right to be ashamed of, which is perhaps why it has only come to light recently.

From this site: http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html

Could this possibly be where the term Maggie came from for Bridget?

History of the name Bridget.

BRIDGET
Gender: Feminine
Usage: Irish, Scottish, English, Irish Mythology
Pronounced: BRIJ-it [key]
Extra Info: Popularity, Related Names, Namesakes, Websites
Options: Contribute Information

From the Irish name Brighid which means "exalted one". In Irish mythology she was the goddess of fire, poetry and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda. This name was also borne by two import saints: a patron saint of Ireland (also known as Brigid) who established a convent at Kildare in the 5th century, and the patron saint of Sweden (also known as Birgitta) who founded an order of nuns in the 14th century.

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=bridget
===============================================
http://www.namenerds.com/irish/
===============================================
BRIDGET f Irish, Scottish, English, Irish Mythology
From the Irish name Brighid which means "exalted one"... [more]

BRIGHID f Irish, Irish Mythology
Irish form of BRIDGET

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/iri.html
===============================================

Anglicization of Gaelic names was forced upon the Irish through the Penal Laws that outlawed use of the Irish language. Many of the names that came to be commonly used in Ireland are actually anglicized versions of earlier names. Some examples of this are Patrick (Pádraig),John (Sean), Thomas (Tomaltach), James (Seamus) and William (Liam) for boys and Mary (Maire), Anne (Áine), Kathleen (Caitlin), and Bridget (Brigid) for girls.

http://www.allaboutirish.com/library/ge ... terns.shtm

I thought this was kind of interesting also, they are guidelines to Irish naming traditions which are meant to help in tracing your family tree.

"These are just a general guideline as there are likely to be regional differences, e.g. in West Cork, the oldest daughter seems to have been named after the father's mother, not the mother's mother.



Oldest son named after the Father's father
2nd son named after the Mother's father
3rd son named after the Father
4th son named after the Father's oldest brother


Oldest daughter named after the Mother's mother
2nd daughter named after the Father's mother
3rd daughter named after the Mother
4th daughter named after the Mother's oldest sister


2nd wife's oldest daughter named after the first wife, using her full name"

http://bradley.home.tripod.com/id59.htm

things sure have changed, my grandaugher will be
named "Nya Mae Wolfe" after NOONE. I said couldn't you just name her Nya Jane? (to get my
middle name in there) nope, they just like Nya Mae
(well I can't talk since I named my son Waylon after
a country music singer of the time) but at least his
middle name is Robert after my Dad! customs change.....

My Lord...

If I had been named after my maternal grandmother I would be BLANCHE!

Here I thought Vivienne was bad!

Instead of my siblings and I being

Christopher
Matthew
Elizabeth
Ann-Margaret

we would have been

Hiliare
Wilfred
Edna
Katherine

Eeek.

Our daughter Emily's first name was shosen simply because we liked its nice old-fashioned ring, though it's become sort of trendy lately. Her middle name is Katherine, which was my paternal grandmother's name, but it was chosen in particular because we thought it sounded good with Emily.

I would have been Velma Amanda.


Tracy...

Middle names too!?!?!?!

Blanche Evangeline Marie La'Paix-Martin...

Just call me Vangie.....

Mon Dieu!

One regret I do have... I wish I had named one of my daughters Petula...

All about Maggies and other interesting bits.