Lizzie Borden Society Forum

So from what I understand, at the time Abby was murdered Bridgett was in her room resting because she wasn't feeling well. Her room was situated so that she could hear anything happening outside. Yet in her testimony, she said she didn't hear anything. Abby weighed around 210 pounds and according to The Trial of Lizzie Borden by Cara Robertson, a mass of that weight falling over would've definitely caused a noise (maybe not cause the house itself to shudder -- c'mon, Robertson, Abby wasn't a sumo wrestler...)

So if that's the case, why would Bridgett say she didn't hear anything? She was up there on the second floor, fairly close to the John Morse room. Surely she would've heard something. Is it really that easy to miss a 210-something pound weight falling on the floor? I mean, I suppose its possible, I would just think she'd have heard something falling over and would want to go check.

Okay, you posted some things which need to be corrected.

At the time Abby was killed, Bridget was outside washing the windows. Lizzie was in the house, and she claimed she didn't hear anything.

At the time Andrew was killed, Bridget was taking a nap in her room on the third floor. Lizzie’s claim of where she was and what she heard is all over the place. (I’m going from memory here, so please correct me if I am wrong.)

She told Officer Doherty that she heard a "scraping" noise.
She claimed she was in the yard and heard a "thump".
She claimed she was coming back in from the barn and heard a "scraping" noise.
She claimed she was in the barn looking for lead for sinkers and heard nothing.
She claimed she was in the barn looking for iron for screens and heard nothing.

I think there was a lot of noise, but Lizzie may have blocked out the sounds due to the action of murdering her stepmother and father. I mean come on now, Abby received 19 brutal blows. Those blows were not silent. There would have been noise made when Abby fell to the floor, and she may have even screamed out as she was attacked. But Lizzie heard nothing, I don't believe her.

I also don't believe Lizzie was in the barn when Andrew was killed. What are the chances that an intruder entered the house, killed Andrew, and left again during the exact same 20-30 minute time frame that Lizzie claimed to have been in the barn? I don't buy it!

twinsrwe wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:10 am Okay, you posted some things which need to be corrected.

At the time Abby was killed, Bridget was outside washing the windows. Lizzie was in the house, and she claimed she didn't hear anything.

At the time Andrew was killed, Bridget was taking a nap in her room on the third floor. Lizzie’s claim of where she was and what she heard is all over the place. (I’m going from memory here, so please correct me if I am wrong.)

She told Officer Doherty that she heard a "scraping" noise.
She claimed she was in the yard and heard a "thump".
She claimed she was coming back in from the barn and heard a "scraping" noise.
She claimed she was in the barn looking for lead for sinkers and heard nothing.
She claimed she was in the barn looking for iron for screens and heard nothing.

I think there was a lot of noise, but Lizzie may have blocked out the sounds due to the action of murdering her stepmother and father. I mean come on now, Abby received 19 brutal blows. Those blows were not silent. There would have been noise made when Abby fell to the floor, and she may have even screamed out as she was attacked. But Lizzie heard nothing, I don't believe her.

I also don't believe Lizzie was in the barn when Andrew was killed. What are the chances that an intruder entered the house, killed Andrew, and left again during the exact same 20-30 minute time frame that Lizzie claimed to have been in the barn? I don't buy it!

Ah sorry 'bout that. D: That makes more sense than what I had posted -- clearly I got the two events mixed. xD Sorry. So Bridget was outside when Abby was killed, then napping when Andrew was killed. Got it. :O

And yeah, that sounds about right for Lizzie -- she seems to be all over the place especially at the barn and she just so happens to be out of the house when the murders are happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong -- didn't Abby have any wounds to the front of her head? Your comment of her maybe having screamed has me remembering a scenario where Abby was facing Lizzie (as she would probably have heard someone come in and turned to see who it was) and then started screaming when Lizzie brought the axe on her.

I'm more inclined to believe that Bridget was more inclined to keep her mouth shut. Given the fact she was the hired help. She might have been afraid she would lose her job lf she said anything

snokkums wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:15 am I'm more inclined to believe that Bridget was more inclined to keep her mouth shut. Given the fact she was the hired help. She might have been afraid she would lose her job lf she said anything

Oh absolutely, and factoring in that she was Irish and they weren't exactly viewed nicely in America at the time, I can 100% understand that she'd say nothing. It'd be all too easy for the police to pin her as the killer because who would believe a little Irish maid when a renown businessman and his wife were just brutally hacked to death?

VictorianFan89 wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:31 am ... And yeah, that sounds about right for Lizzie -- she seems to be all over the place especially at the barn and she just so happens to be out of the house when the murders are happening. ...

Lizzie was in the house when Abby murdered. She claimed to have been in the barn when Andrew was murdered.

Here is the link to Lizzie’s Inquest Testimony. She is questioned by Mr. Knowlton as to her whereabouts at the time Abby was killed:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conte ... nquest.pdf

VictorianFan89 wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:31 am ... Correct me if I'm wrong -- didn't Abby have any wounds to the front of her head? Your comment of her maybe having screamed has me remembering a scenario where Abby was facing Lizzie (as she would probably have heard someone come in and turned to see who it was) and then started screaming when Lizzie brought the axe on her.

First of all, the scenario you are remembering sounds like a scene from one of the Lizzie Borden movies. I suggest that you don’t mix fictional movies with the real-life event.

Here is the link for Andrew and Abby’s Autopsy Report and Photographs (Andrew’s report is list first): https://tinyurl.com/taqnq57

VictorianFan89 wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:36 am

snokkums wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:15 am I'm more inclined to believe that Bridget was more inclined to keep her mouth shut. Given the fact she was the hired help. She might have been afraid she would lose her job lf she said anything

Oh absolutely, and factoring in that she was Irish and they weren't exactly viewed nicely in America at the time, I can 100% understand that she'd say nothing. It'd be all too easy for the police to pin her as the killer because who would believe a little Irish maid when a renown businessman and his wife were just brutally hacked to death?

Well, the two of you may be right, but I think Bridget probably didn't say anything, because she really didn't know anything. At the time Abby was killed, she was outside washing windows and talking to the Kelly girl. When Andrew was killed Bridget was three floors away from the murder scene, taking a nap.

I think Bridget knew more than she ever said, even if it was only about the extent of the problems within the family. She was the only other person outside the family who was there consistently every day. She had to have known lots.

But she had nothing to gain by being candid after the murders. As a girl in her teens, my great grandmother was an Irish domestic on Cape Cod, Massachusetts in the early part of the 20th century. She lived well into her 90's and I almost hear her now, "Their problems weren't any of mine. I kept my head down and did my work; nothing to be gained by doing anything else". And I'm not sure I'd have wanted to make an enemy of Miss Lizzie. In keeping with the situation.

Bridget didn't likely hear anything when Abby fell as she was outside. Andrew likely didn't have a chance to cry out, and in that old, solidly built house, she probably couldn't have heard anything two stories up anyway.

But it's hard not to be "struck" by the exquisiteness of Lizzie's timing. Abby's murder may well have been semi-planned in advance and Lizzie simply took advantage of the opportunity. Emma is out of town, John and Andrew have left and are not expected back until noon dinner, Bridget is outside at Abby's direction, not at Lizzie's and not of her own volition. Abby is trapped in guest room, with no means of escaping a stronger attacker. I don't see how Lizzie could have planned in advance for the stars to line up like this, but they did.

Although things fell apart for Lizzie when Andrew returned home early, here again, she lucked out by Bridget heading up to her room for a short nap, giving her the opportunity to chop up her poppa in private and enough time to get rid of the weapon, hide her clothing, and think up some sort alibi, ridiculous though it was.

So did Bridget step out of the way to give Lizzie the opportunity to commit these bloody murders? Personally, I doubt it. I'm with those who believe Andrew only died because he came home too early for Lizzie to get fully cleaned up and out of the house. Had Bridget not gone upstairs and instead busied herself in the kitchen, Andrew would have survived and figured out that only Lizzie or Bridget could have killed his wife. And he knew who hated Mrs. Borden.

Had he survived his early homecoming, I wonder if Andrew would have covered for Lizzie as he always had?

Hello, Collibosher, welcome to the forum.

I have to agree with you on all of the points you made. Personally, I don't think Andrew would have covered for Lizzie regarding his wife's murder. I think Lizzie knew that Andrew would know she was the killer. Andrew put up with and over looked a lot, but murder is something that I don't think he would have tolerated.