Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Several questions I have about the maid, Maggie and Lizzie, the stories told.

Bridget, the maid, claimed to be outside when Mrs. Borden was murdered. She then said she went upstairs for a nap after doing the windows, coming back downstairs when Lizzie called her to find Mr. Borden was murdered. Time span was an hour and a half between the two murders. She said she could not sleep. How long was she upstairs? Just wondering on this one.

1. So after Mr. Borden was murdered Lizzie stated to the police that she thought Abby had returned and asked if someone could go upstairs and look for her. Sullivan and a neighbour, Mrs.Churchill, were halfway up the stairs, their eyes level with the floor, when they looked into the guest room and saw Abby lying face down on the floor.

How is it that Bridget did not see Mrs. Borden lying on the floor when she went upstairs for her nap earlier when she was there at that time? How did she not see her when she came back down the stairs? I’ve never seen anyone point this obvious thing out.

Also, just perhaps conjecture but no fan, no ac, hottest day of the year and a body laying for a few hours in blood, would there not be a noticeable smell from the blood? They always say blood has a strong smell.

Another point, Bridget claimed she was trying to sleep during the period of time Andrew Borden was being murdered and did not hear a thing. I know it’s been pointed out that seems a bit implausible but I do have a thought on this and perhaps it’s not likely.

Mrs. Borden murdered in the 9 o’clock hour, struck 18 times. Mr. Borden murdered in the 11 o’clock hour, struck 11 times.

Could the murderer, possibly Lizzie, have timed the axe strikes with the sound of the town clock chimes to disguise the sound? TWICE on the chime for the much hated Mrs. Borden, hence 9 chimes x 2 equals 18 strikes.

Once per chime for Mr. Borden. 11 chimes x 1 equals 11 strikes.

How loud were the chimes? Where was the church bell chiming from?

I’ve always wondered if this is a possibility, my own theory here.

Lizzie, if she thought a murderer committed these heinous acts, stayed by the front door while Bridget was told to go get the doctor, and to go fetch the neighbor when the doctor was found to be out on rounds. If one thought a violent axe murderer was the perpetrator why wouldn’t they get the heck out of the house imagining that the same person might want everyone in the house dead? Also, why wouldn’t you muse, ‘how come they didn’t come for me? I’m here in the house, an hour and a half in between murders and did not get me too?’ Wasn’t it at one point thought the murderer might’ve been hiding in the house? I thought I read it was even considered they were hiding where the coal bin closet or something was.

Last thought: The entire timeline is pretty dependent on the stories told by Lizzie and Bridget. An hour and a half or so of time and who knows what was going on, only two there and a story told. Mr. Borden still bleeding leads one to conclude it hadn’t been long but it could be longer than supposed, it’s pretty up for grabs as to that short time and Lizzie supposedly yelling for Bridget to come down. Who knows what really occurred? I know everyone probably thinks of this but it just seems not to get pointed out much.

Beowulf, thanks for sharing your musings. As I read you thoughts on the clock chimes, I chuckled as I envisioned Andy Dufresne (Shawshank redemption) as he timed his blows against the pipe when thunder struck. Just a couple of comments.....Bridget took back stairs to her bedroom and Abby was killed at top of front stairs. Also Andrew got home per Ms Kelly around 10:40. Do we know he was alive then. I agree that it seems very peculiar that Lizzie wouldn’t have left the house knowing her dad had just been butchered. Killer could be anywhere.

I have thought that thing about the chimes for many years, since the 70s. I never saw Shawshank redemption, interesting. Maybe I’ll get to see it sometime.

So Bridget took the back stairs to her bedroom, now that solves that nagging little mystery for me, thank you :) I know it’s not known exactly when Mr. Borden was murdered and it may not have been when the chimes went off. But I had that thought gee, maybe that’s why Bridget didn’t hear anything. Also, I have wondered if it is possible to hear that sound on the third floor with a door probably closed. I wonder if she had a window open, being so hot that day, outside sounds may have blocked the sound if any to be heard. But really it’s all her testimony and no one to even say if she was up there at all. That’s another thought I’ve had.

I lived for years in a home built in 1900 with 3rd story attic converted to master bedroom. I don’t recall ever hearing what was happening on 1st floor and I raised 4 kids there. Similar to Lizzie calling Bridget, they would ‘scream’ up the stairs up the stairs when dinner was ready, since invariably they were too lazy to come up and get me.

If Mr. Borden got home at 10:40 Lizzie said (well, then again 'Lizzie said) he read the paper and then she helped him into the room for a nap. She also said she helped remove his boots but as we can see from the photo he had them on, so it's then a question as to whether he read the paper and how long that took before he went in for his nap.

If Bridget told the truth, then Andrew was killed between 10:50 - 11:05, most likely closer to 11am. So maybe your chime theory has got some traction. . If she lied, then she is involved in the killings. So you need to come to a POV on Bridget based on the whole before you can start narrowing down the scenarios.

I have no definite opinion about Bridget. I have considered the theories about her but there isn't any basis in evidence to support them other than conjecture and it just isn't enough for me to feel concrete about where Bridget fits into the story.

But as for her telling the truth, if she did, she could just be a truthful murderer, no? Pretending to be uninvolved and offering up some truth about the times to show she is trying to be a cooperative person.

I just recently read of the poem Lizzie requested to be read at her funeral, and a possible meaning behind the words, and they kind of suggest to me Bridget was not necessarily involved but perhaps Emma was.

I tell you, I am way out there as far as getting at the truth in this thing.

The poem read at Lizzie's funeral, that Lizzie picked to be read a couple of verses to be read, one she specifically picked was this verse:
https://phayemuss.livejournal.com/3952.html

The green leaf o' loyaltie 's beginning for to fa',

The bonnie White Rose it is withering an' a';

But I'll water 't wi' the blude of usurping tyrannie,

An' green it will graw in my ain countree.

I saw this interpretation on a youtube video, you have to go to about 23:22 to hear about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T84qWybONkA

I listened to the Lizzie Borden Trial, and in the examination of Bridget Bridget stated she went up for a nap and couldn't sleep. She was asked if she could hear any opening or closing of the screen door. She said if anybody goes in or out and is careless she can hear the slamming of the screen door from her room on the third floor.

So one would think she might hear Mr. Borden being struck in the sitting room downstairs. I don't know how much sound an axe hitting a head makes but it must make some 11 times in a row. However, in thinking this over she prob did not hear anything. I was originally thinking she was napping while mrs Borden was murdered. I noticed she was ok to take a nap but later when finding out about the murders did not want to stay in the house at all.

Your questions on what could be heard from where, are examples of why I’d love to spend some time in that house. The side door that Bridget mentions is directly next to the bottom of stairs that go up to her room. The sitting room is in middle of house, first floor. They usually kept the door between sitting room and kitchen closed. No idea what blows to a head sound like, but as gross as it is, I would think each subsequent hit made less noise than prior since the contact point was so damaged. Good questions!

When Lizzie told Bridget to go get Dr. Bowen, he was out. Then she sent Bridget to get Miss Russell, it was brought out in the trial that Mrs. Churchill was a friend who lived a long distance away for Bridget to go get her, and also happened to be the person to whom Lizzie stated she had a feeling of impending disaster for her father the very night before. In other words, while Bridget was gone Lizzie had time alone. Was that the purpose of sending her on a long jaunt? I don't know how much time took place before Mrs. Churchill came over, that was unexpected by Lizzie but she got there and when she did Lizzie was standing by the front door. When Bridget got back she asked Lizzie should I go ask Mrs. Whitehead's for Mrs. Borden? Lizzie told her 'no, I think I heard her come in, I wish you would look and see if you can't find Mrs. Borden'. So if Lizzie was waiting by the front door (unafraid of a murderer still in the house?) where did Mrs. Borden come into the house unseen? Why would she not use the front door but instead go by way of the side door? It does not lead directly to her room or the front of the house, and didn't all the doors get kept locked anyway? If Mrs. Borden was at Mrs. Whitehead's house (why Bridget thought this is also a puzzle to me as Bridget originally asked Lizzie where is Mrs. Borden and she simply told her she had a note from a friend who was sick and went out. Why would she think she was at Mrs. Whitehead's?) But nevertheless Mrs. Whitehead's house is up the street and then you turn right and go down Borden street to her house. Coming back the same way the first stairs would be through the front entryway.

Another thing about both Mrs. Churchill and Bridget being sent upstairs to see if Mrs. Borden came in, as per Lizzie's request. They both were aware Mr. Borden was laying in the sitting room hacked to death, why would they not be afraid to go upstairs or anywhere in that house to look for Mrs. Borden? Wouldn't you think they might be fearing there was a murderer in the house? Mr. Borden was still warm and bleeding. Mrs. Borden, assumed to be alive and not laying on the floor dead for an hour or more. I sure as heck would not want to go peeping around a house just after finding a violent murder occurred there just moments ago. Yet we know Mrs. Churchill was definitely innocent, one might suspect Bridget but they never seemed to do that. You would think Lizzie might even go looking for her herself, but then she had the excuse of not being fond of the woman. Still, it seems more important to deliver the message directly as it IS family than to have a maid and a neighbor go find the woman and tell her that Mr. Borden, her husband, has been brutally murdered.

When Mr. Borden came home, had his trouble with the lock and got himself in, this is when the suspicious laugh Bridget heard by Lizzie who was upstairs. I would so love to have heard that laugh. What did THAT sound like? A maniacal laugh as she spied Mrs. Borden on the floor and found it amusing Mr. Borden was having trouble getting into a house where his murderer awaited? Laughing at the sight of Mrs. Borden laying there and her handiwork done well? Or only laughing innocently at someone having trouble opening a door and Bridget's exclamation, 'pshaw'? What did Bridget think later when she remembered and now knew Lizzie was up there and likely in sight of Mrs. Borden? Did Bridget think her innocent, and then an innocent laugh or did it make her blood run cold, as it does nearly mine when I think of that moment.

Lastly, Mr. Borden came in, took his key, went upstairs briefly and then came down again. So then, why did he not see Mrs. Borden? Just luck for the murderer? Did Lizzie have a moment of nervousness when he went up there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnC9lX2 ... cF&index=5

B - you’ve got sone of the doors and stairs mixed up. After finding Andrews body, Lizzie stayed close to side door. She was never standing at front door as Bridget and Churchill came and went. Also, The backstairs were how to get to Andrew, Abby and bridgets rooms. Only Lizzie, Emma and guest room were up front stairs. Lastly, I think Abby had few social friends and Bridget assumed it was the whiteheads who the note referenced. All that said, you are correct that Lizzie saying Abby had come home, made no sense and sure seems like part of the weave of lies Lizzie spun.

Yes, I see now what you are saying. I have the stairs mixed up. So coming back from Russell's house would be that entrance that Bridget and Churchill came in, from 2nd street and Lizzie was standing on the other side leading back by the barn.

So, when Mr. Borden went up he went up by the other stairs by the barn and would not have seen Mrs. Borden lying on the floor of the guest room, as those back stairs lead to his room.

But why would they use the front stairway to look for Mrs. Borden? Why would they not use the stairs that led to her room, and Lizzie being at the back stairs maybe when she told them to go search for her, they were right at those stairs? Why not search the first floor?

It is interesting that Bridget and Churchill went to front stairs and not back stairs when Lizzie said to go find her. No way to know, but I’ve supposed that Lizzie somehow indicated ‘check the front’. If it seemed odd at that time, absolutely no one noted it that day or anytime thru the trial.

Yes, that is exactly what I thought. She probably gave the indication to go to the front stairs, and right, it passed along unnoticed, or if noticed was not noted in the trial because there was no evidence of it.

B -- not sure what books on the case you have read, but I highly recommend William Spencer's "The Case Against Lizzie Borden"....it presents the events in chronological order and I think does a very good job presenting the information with minimal author opinions which might distort the story. In the final chapter, he does provide his deductions and what he thinks happened.

The book includes floor plans of the Borden home and multiple diagrams displaying the neighborhoods and shopping areas around the house and key locations.