Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I'm relatively new to the case, but after watching episode 29 of her interview with Dennis Binette (FRHS Parallel Lives) I would love to see some type of preemptive video or article for the new amateur investigators if the upcoming Netflix series spurs a surge of interest in the case.

I think Dr. Koorey could help newbies from falling into the trap of being right for the wrong reasons. For example, people new to the case usually go in thinking Andrew is Ebenezer Scrooge and doesn't spend any money on the girls. He paid for Emma's college, he sent Lizzie to Europe. They have custom dresses made regularly. Then we usually swing the pendulum to a disproportionally generous view of Andrew. Here is where I currently land, and I am almost certainly not seeing the whole picture, especially from the perspectives each family member had.

Andrew, who owned a furniture and carpentry business among many other financial interests, chose to put Lizzie in a room without a private entrance from her early teens all the way though normal marriageable age, right into early spinsterhood. That room was not much larger than her step-mother's clothes closet, or her jail cell. He could have built guest rooms on the 3rd floor and given Lizzie the 2nd floor guest room. He literally owned a business full of carpenters. He was a carpenter.

Andrew chose not to have plumbing on the second floor. There were between 20 and 35 windows overlooking the Borden property and they were still dumping slop buckets in the lawn. Socially humiliating for the daughters and an expression of self-righteous Yankee thrift and stubborn rigidity from Andrew, I think.

Why am I so harsh on Andrew?

1. He knew, and Abby knew, how betrayed, humiliated, and enraged they felt when they learned from an outsider that Andrew had arranged for their step-mother's half sister to live rent free by purchasing half interest in a house for her. Imagine the gut punch of knowing your parents both lied by omission and now a step-mother's half sister has a private house paid for rent free and Lizzie's room is essentially a walk-in closet without even a private entrance through her entire teens and twenties?

2. Not only did he choose not spend a small fraction of 1% of his net worth on the bedroom and bathroom remodeling, the entire cost of Maplecroft was less than 5% of his net worth. As close as I can tell Maplecroft was purchased with 4.33% of their inheritance. It may be more with the legal fees and the settlement with Abby's family but I'm pretty confident it was in the neighborhood of 5%. He could have bought the middle-aged women a house on the Hill and let them live there for free. It would have just been one more of many real estate investments for him. Social stigma - I call BS - they lived there alone and many of the Fall River wealthy women lived without male guardians. And I absolutely, positively, believe Andrew and Lizzie alike would tell those nosey, stuck up snobs where they can stick their noses if they made comments about the women living alone. I actually think both of them would actually enjoy that confrontation. Lizzie is often portrayed as a volatile young woman - but the reality is, by Victorian standards, Emma and Lizzie were spinsters that that long since aged out of the normal marriage age for their class. If they were 22 and 26 I could put some weight on the social stigma issue, but at 42 and 31, they were essentially old maids already as far as the Victorian era marriage market goes.

3. If the Swansea land deal is correct, or even if the will is correct, Andrew and Abby both, knowing how betrayed Lizzie and Emma felt, knowing how much they were hurt by it and it wasn't getting any better, they apparently decided to DO IT AGAIN, a huge financial deal behind their backs. Absolute betrayal of all parent-child trust.

I don't think I have the whole picture and I may have swung too far into thinking the parents betrayed the daughters. However, given the rage of the murders, I think Lizzie may have felt that pressure building and building, watching her cousins and their peers attend parties, find either husbands and families, or at least enjoy social connection and a quality of life commensurate with their wealth. But it was the betrayal - the repeated hiding financial transactions when they both knew that the daughters felt betrayed.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was motivated by greed, in the traditional sense, it was the theft of Lizzie's quality of life, over and over, every day a reminder that 3% on a ledger book meant more to him than his daughter's happiness. That his own self-made-man ego meant more to him than his daughter's dreams. Andrew created a powder keg and he lit the fuse, twice.

So, Dr. Koorey - could you set the proportional record straight? I think I might be too harsh on Andrew, but I can't currently see where I'm wrong. And as for Abby, she was supposed to be a mother to Lizzie and she, too, lied by omission and became Mrs. Borden. And that may have been more of a direct slight aimed at her - meaning you lied to me, too, you do not act like my protective, loving mother, nurturing my growth, you are simply Mrs. Borden.

Lorcan -- well written and presented. My view is that Andrew raised and provided for his children as he thought necessary to provide them a safe and practical life. If his daughter decided he should die because she wanted more sizzle and flair in her life, then I think she was greedy and possibly sociopathic.

On your third bullet, I presume the 'Swansea land deal' you are referencing is the myth that Andrew was considering selling one of the Swansea farms? There is zero evidence suggesting this was the case. I don't consider Victoria Lincoln quoting her father as evidence. Victoria's book, 'Private Disgrace', is chock full of unsubstantiated rumors and speculation.

Emma put the upper farm for sale weeks after Lizzie's indictment after the preliminary hearing. It was sold prior to the trial itself. My assumption is that the sale was intended to generate sufficient cash to hire the all-star defense team. I sure hope Abby and Andrew didn't die because he was considering selling the same farm!

I didn't finish Rebecca Pittman's book yet, but I believe she has some new evidence about the Swansea Farms. I think she identified a cousin of Uncle John (he played pro baseball and was wearing their very specific set of uncommon colors that a witness reported) who was going to be part of it. I'll have to finish Rebecca's book to see what the strength of the evidence is.

I was originally baffled by the seemingly extreme and long-term grudge over the step-mother's half-sister house transaction. Then I thought about my upcoming stay in the Lizzie & Emma suite. I imagine a 17 year old Lizzie laying in bed staring at the ceiling in that tiny room while the girls her age are partying on the Hill. I imagine Lizzie in the yard as one of the fancy carriages passes by just as Andrew is throwing his slop bucket and the girls making eye contact with Lizzie. Maybe some of those girls saying, you better not eat any pears that Lizzie gives you, you wouldn't believe what gets thrown on her lawn. Then imagine her in her ever pressurizing twenties, year by year, getting older, hearing of one after another of her former classmates or distant cousins marrying and moving into a mansion to start a family and take her place in society. She is still in that tiny room, staring at the ceiling.

Then imagine the moment when someone tells Lizzie about Andrew paying for her step-mother's half sister to live rent free in a house that he paid for and put in Abby's name. That fraction of a second of unguardedness as both Lizzie and the person telling her realize in horror or malicious satisfaction that she doesn't know. Abby and Andrew hid it from her. Just imagine the gut punch of humiliation, the profound sense of betrayal, knowing they deliberately hid it from her, the volcanic rage building up. If I were Lizzie I would have walked into that house and slapped him across the face as hard as I could. What a betrayal. It wasn't about money - it was her entire youth, all her dreams, she now knew her place in his heart. That he would lie. That Abby would lie. That he would give her half-sister a house and hide it from Lizzie while she was stuck in that tiny room.

Now imagine they did it again. That volcanic rage explodes. No more slap in the face. You are dead to me. You are dead.

That, to me, seems like it might explain things, emotionally. I could be way off, but I bet Lizzie felt at least some of that. There is no doubt Andrew did not even spend 1% of his net worth on the comfort and dignity of his daughters. He could have spent 5% and given Lizzie all she asked for. He did not. He kept her in that room. He lied by omission. She took it personally. That's my current theory.

I did the calculation to be sure I wasn't overstating how little Maplecroft cost, proportionally.

Using the high-end trial figure of $300,000 and the commonly cited original construction cost of Maplecroft of about $7,000, the percentage is about 2.33%. The same historical source that gives the purchase price of $13,000 says Charles Allen had built Maplecroft for about $7,000 a few years earlier, while the trial opening gives Andrew’s wealth range as roughly $250,000 to $300,000.

Build Maplecroft-class house at $7,000 vs. $300,000 estate = 2.33%
Buy Maplecroft at $13,000 vs. $250,000 estate = 5.2%

Agree that she wanted a grander lifestyle, and the resentment eventually let to an emotional detachment from Andrew.

It seems a revealing that a few weeks before the murders, she asked Charles Cook his opinion on the value of 12 Ferry St. The only reason to ask that question would be to make sure that her father paid Emma and herself a fair market price. Her inquiry implies a degree of mistrust.

Andrew paid $10,000 for the Second St. house in 1871. Hard to wrap one's head around the fact that Maplecroft cost less than $15k in 1893. Pretty odd.

Will be Interested to hear what sources Ms. Pittman provides to support a claim that Andrew was planning a Swansea farm sale. Guessing what she provides will be underwhelming.

I was confused by the price differential, too. The only thing I can think of is that it was so close to the central business district he was paying commercial real estate prices for two income producing residences (before he converted it to a single family house) plus the 30 rods of land (the back yard). I think French Street, when Maplecroft was built, was not fully developed with every lot full. But still - the size and quality differential between the houses really makes the prices stand out. Back then the center of town was vibrant not the ghost town main streets we have today.

It actually makes it look even worse. He chose 2nd Street. For basically the same money they could have had Maplecroft. I don't know if Lizzie really knew that or knew his real net worth, but based on her detailed list of properties she rattled off in the inquest, plus how gossipy the town was, plus that information is public records, if she wanted to know she could have found out.

Imagine her laying 100 pennies on the dining room table and saying, dad please, for 1 penny we can have bathrooms with running water upstairs and two guest rooms on the 3rd floor. If you would give Emma and I just 4 cents of our inheritance early, we can have a chance, not a guarantee, but a chance at finding happiness and social engagement on the Hill. We'll invite you to dinner every Sunday. Please father, just 4 cents and you don't even have to give it to us right away, just let us live there. 4 out of 100. Please father. I know she did not do that but I sure wish she did and he accepted.

Here is French Street 1877 for reference of the amount of development. Note, I think the houses are just representative of the type of building, not a literal accurate drawing of the individual houses.

This map is truly amazing. The structures are not spitting images of the actual buildings, but after extensively studying this map over the years, it many instances it does provide a reasonable facsimile of buildings. I've googled around trying to figure out what technology or science was used for these 'birds eye view' maps. I believe they used balloons in addition to whatever data was gathered from the ground. Truly remarkable output considering over 150 years ago.

For anyone wanting to view the entirety of this Fall River map, here is the link.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/sea ... :wd376108f