Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Do y’all think the dress was in the little closet next to the stove when the house was searched, and if so why wasn’t it found to have blood.
Small closets would be an obvious place to look thoroughly, I mean they looked in the trunk in the attic/upstairs.
If it wasn’t in the little closet and did have blood on it, why wasn’t it discarded with the hatchet or weapon?
Why keep it and risk its discovery?
In my mind this is a small positive for Lizzie.

Was the privy in the barn or well ever searched?
I seem to recall the well was but not the barn privy.

When I was staying in Lizzie and Emma's room, one of the decorations was a dress stand with an old dress. It was hollow, but it was newer than the dress stands in 1892. However, there were two popular dress stand styles in 1892, one was a wire frame and one was a quarter inch thick paper mache. I think the blue Bedford cord may have been initially hidden inside a dress stand with one or more dresses, complete or in progress, mounted on the stands and the police did not remove the dresses from the stands and disassemble the stands.

My reasoning for thinking there was one or more dress stands is:

1. It was normal for the women to buy dress patterns and sew them based on a lot of testimony. I assume these would be the cheaper, more functional dresses worn for chores and relaxing in the privacy of the house, not fancy Victorian gowns.

2. They were very useful to pin the pieces together or put temporary basting loops before sewing tightly with the sewing machine.

3. They were cheap, so why not have a couple in case two dresses are in progress.

I think Lizzie could have brought a covered pan upstairs at some point over the weekend and brought the dress down into the kitchen cupboard in preparation for burning. I don't think the dress was in the cupboard during the initial police search. That would be an extremely reckless place to put a bloody dress. Bridget could easily have been expected to make food for a large number of guests in the house during the chaos of the initial investigation.

Two other items to consider are:

1. What was in the bag in Emma's small bedroom (formerly Lizzie's)?

2. Why did Lizzie stop Alice from loosening the neck of Lizzie's dress right after the murders? So the bedford cord may be underneath. I think Pittman pointed out the mutton chop sleeves and the extra hem might have been ripped off to make it easier to hide that dress underneath.

I don't know if the barn privy was searched. I assume it would have been searched when the more systematic search was done during the funeral.

I think since hatchets were so common and untraceable back then (remember, fingerprints were not used yet in the USA - they had just begun in Europe) so they police would expect an outside intruder to just drop the weapon at the scene rather than risking being caught with it, however if it was an inside job, the hatchet could be identified by someone familiar with the particular hatchets in the house. The safest thing for an insider to have done was to have obtained a hatchet that no one could have known about and leave it at the scene. If poisoning was the plan up until less than 24 hours before the hatchet murders, then there may not have been an opportunity to obtain an untraceable hatchet. If that is the case, something must have forced a deadline, perhaps some rolled up paper smoldering in the kitchen stove.

That’s an interesting view on the dress stands. Possibly a female detective would have thought to look inside a hollow stand, but maybe not a male.
I agree the dress, if suspicious in any way wouldn’t have been in the little pantry. It’s not normal unless it was being used for a cleaning cloth, but we know that’s not possible because it was being torn apart by Lizzie.

Assuming that Lizzie killed her parents, my thoughts on the dress burning is that as of mid-day Saturday, Lizzie didn't think any blood had gotten on the stained dress. If she attacked her parents, she had covered herself with either an apron and/or AJB's coat....removing and concealing the dress after the murders to be on the safe side.

However, Saturday evening, when it became clear that law enforcement suspected her, she had a sleepless night, tossing and turning, trying to think of anything that might point the finger at her. She decided that the dress needed to eliminated.

The police would have made mention if they saw a dress with stains. I can't imagine they wouldn't have had Dolan, et al, examine the dress to confirm the stains were not blood. So I think the stained dress was hidden from sight. Where? Only Lizzie can help us on that front. I do think the stained dress was under her person on the afternoon of the murder as she sat up in her bedroom. The police didn't look there until the surprise visit during the funeral on Saturday. Newspapers report that the police had a tip in advance of the Saturday search. Who that tipster might have been is interesting fodder for speculation. But that they specifically looked around the bedroom lounge and mattress is what leads me to think she literally was sitting on the dress on August 4 afternoon.

Yes, the well was 'searched'. The 'toilets' were not specifically mentioned, but hard to imagine they wouldn't have been searched to whatever degree was possible.

So….no bloody dress to burn, although I tend to agree, I am troubled by the striped wrapper she changed into, just feels wrong under the circumstances. I’m not a woman, but it seems more of a party dress to me, quite unfitting time wise.
I can’t recall any privy searches, but like you mentioned, it would seem a formality.
As for the hatchet, I use to think it must have been the Crowe barn hatchet, but for several reasons have dismissed it and lean towards the handleless hatchet as more likely.

The Victorian era police would initially assume it was a crime committed by a man. Why not dial up the wardrobe to maximum femininity to further the distance between you and the crime? Pink wrapper is a solid choice. A Victorian "wrapper" is not a wrap around robe, they looked like this. Shelley Dziedzig's book Dressing Miss Lissie, has all the dresses shown in detail. Please buy her book, if interested. Here is a generic sample from the Internet, NOT Shelley's book.

Inspector -- what are the reasons you doubt the Crowe barn hatchet? I'm still vacillating on its role in the Borden universe and love to hear varying thoughts.

Inspector - to make it easier to visualize here are the two drawings I know of. Quality is very bad, but if anyone has a better copy of the 3rd street one looking southwest toward 2nd St, please post.

Here you go....

Thanks! I'm reading your Crowe Barn Hatchet thread.

I think that was a long, winding thread covering multiple issues. But I think some good debate. I recall it got a little tense between me and another poster. I tend to get frustrated with stubbornness.

Hello, I answered the Crowe question on the thread you provided so I’ll not repeat it here. I do appreciate the illustrations , one of which I’ve not seen before, and I am surprised the toss doesn’t seem to show any tree obstacles in the way, and have made me doubt my dismissal of the Crowe hatchet.
Just when I think I’ve attained some surety, this case says not so fast.
I still lean toward the handleless hatchet, and for what it’s worth, I seem to leave things on the roof almost every time I get up there and have to go back up.

That’s about what I had in mind for the wrapper of Lizzie’s, it was more the color choice and big ribbon that Lizzie wore that alarmed me. Almost like a party , candy stripe.
It would certainly increase the feminine aspect I suppose.

Unrelated a bit, but I watched an interrogation video a few moments ago, and a mother and daughter used a hatchet style pic axe to kill the dad/husband. It happened the next city over from me fairly recently.
The mom burned the daughter’s clothes since the daughter did the actual killing. They were mad over money, and thought they could blame it on an imaginary intruder.
The daughter hit him 17 times when he was sleeping.
This to me is the same type demonic spirit that was in Fall River back in 1892.
The mother and daughter had zero remorse, and were only upset they got caught, but neither will never leave prison.

I am a rabid viewer of 48 hours and Forensic Files. It is disconcerting how often seemingly ordinary people are involved in extremely heinous crimes involving their family and friends. The motives are almost always greed and lust and very rarely out of a legitimate intent of self-defense. The concept of permanently ending a persons life because it would make our own life more enjoyable is so very, very abhorrent.

Yes sir. The lack of emotion in these people reminds me of how they described Lizzie.

I explored the idea of Lizzie as a sociopath or psychopath and now I am less convinced of that. What made me open my eyes is think of soldiers in the pre-gunpowder era. Every single man above about 14 or so years of age was expected to be able to, face to face, hack people to death and return to normal life. So, it is not only sociopaths who are capable of that - what is required is you see the other person as an existential threat or dehumanize them in some way. I can think of several ways Lizzie could have worked herself up into both of those paths without her being a sociopath or psychopath and for her being a normal, loving, caring, person as were 95% - 99% of the men who fought through the entire stone age, bronze age, iron age, etc.

That realization was really startling to me and really shocked me into seeing what Stephen King often tries to portray in his books. There is a thin veil of normalcy and peace over human society and that veil can be ripped very easily.

Any chance you guys took a gander inside any of the closets or pantry’s when you visited the Borden house?
Odd question, but just wondering if they’ve even been photographed through the years .
I suppose they’re not original anymore after so many years, but I’d be curious to know how they looked back then.
I wish modern forensics could scan the outside property through the modern parking lot, just in case something was buried.
I know they turned over every leaf, and rust would have probably destroyed any type of weapon. It still interests me, as well as the interior walls of the house.
Could there be a secret hiding spot that could hold some new information?

I'm traveling and will be away from the forum for the rest of the week, but I can tell you after inspecting all the closets except for the one next to the front door (would not open) and the one in the dining room (I mistook it for a door into the front parlor) there are no secrets to be had. They are plastered over and just have old style 3 pronged hooks on a mount. I think there are more opportunities to hide things in the basement or between the floors, inside the walls, etc. than the closets. Two floorboards are missing from Lizzie's room (I'm assuming selfish souvenir hunters, but it could just be damage. Lizzie lived there all through her teens and twenties. If there was a hideyhole on that property, she probably knew about it. But remember, the police left all the prime suspects alone in the house for many, many, hours. The crime scene is entirely compromised from a legal standpoint.

Safe travels Lorcan, thanks for the info on the closets, it’s still cool that you were able to look inside them. The one in the dining room is the one that supposedly held the Prince Albert on regular occasions

Lorcan wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2026 1:49 pm I explored the idea of Lizzie as a sociopath or psychopath and now I am less convinced of that. What made me open my eyes is think of soldiers in the pre-gunpowder era. Every single man above about 14 or so years of age was expected to be able to, face to face, hack people to death and return to normal life. So, it is not only sociopaths who are capable of that - what is required is you see the other person as an existential threat or dehumanize them in some way.

THE POST BELOW IS 100% PERSONAL OPINION

Lorcan -- as AJB's self-appointed advocate ( ), I have a really hard time giving any degree of equality to actions taken during intense, hand-to-hand combat versus actions taken after realizing the cumulative effect of being forced to sleep in a small bedroom, having to go to the basement to use the toilet and similar living limitations.

'Survival instinct' is a dominant and overriding behavior in all living creatures. Frankly, that is one of the most damning aspects of this case for me....that Lizzie did not flee the house upon finding her father and knowing that his death had to have just occurred. My father was a paratrooper in WWII and he told me that trying to kill other people was surreal and repulsive, but you knew that if you didn't shoot in their direction or lob grenades where people might be, they would do the same to you and you might never see your family again. Adding to that realization was 'peer pressure'. Hard to literally sit there and duck when your compatriots were taking combat action. Close combat was often a case of group think and group protection.

Lizzie was 32 years old, had not worked for pay a single hour of her life (that we are aware of), apparently had sufficient spending money to socialize as opportunities presented themselves, had zero non-discretionary expenses, no household responsibilities outside her personal bedroom, a servant to prepare meals and do her laundry, had taken a 13 week journey to Europe two years prior and had 50% ownership of a 2-story duplex sitting a on 3/4 acre lot (one of the largest lots in Fall River). As she herself made clear to her friends in the days after the murders, she had sufficient monies in the bank to live comfortably and didn't need her father's wealth .

If Lizzie did kill her father with 10 blows of a hatchet, all while he was lying on a sofa asleep and facing the opposite direction, she was remarkably composed just 5-10 minutes later and able to be viewed by multiple people who knew her. None of them described Lizzie as 'out of sorts'. Many pro-Lizzie posters take the position that people differ in how they handle a crisis.....but I think those people are describing differing reactions to finding someone dead or being given bad news. But can a sane human really obliterate their father whose 'crime' was to annoy and frustrate their lifestyle aspirations? And can a sane person continue to appear composed afterwards? It's probably possible, but sure would be scary if they could.

For me, it seems likely that Lizzie had some form of mental illness (I vote narcissistic personality disorder), which proved to be toxic when mixed with her 'sense of 'entitlement' to live like her distant cousins, Anna & Carrie Borden.

Last thought. If Lizzie didn't have a mental illness, then I think that gives more credence to the possibility she had an accomplice...particularly when it came to dispatching her father.


p.s. With all this said, I can't explain why Andrew didn't want a more posh and comfortable home for his family. He could afford it. I just think he wrongly decided the family was just fine where they were.