Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Not to sound redundant, but one of if not the biggest single piece against Lizzie in my mind is the pail.
I can sense Medley’s trouble accepting the innocence of it all.
There aren’t many options here, either the blood is from the victims or it’s Lizzie’s.
Either it was there 3-4 days prior or put there Thursday morning,
Bridget says it couldn’t have been there 2 day’s prior, which leaves Wednesday or Thursday as the only options.
Therefore since Lizzie would know if yesterday (Wednesday) and doesn’t say so, it can only be Thursday.
I think this starts Bridget’s suspicions, and she (Lizzie ) won’t let her go to Mrs Whiteheads to search for Abby, then she puts the two together—-just my guess.
Since we know officer Medley arrives at the Bordens very early, how is it that Lizzie has offered up the information about the pail?
Why has it all been explained to Dr Bowen if it was so innocent?
Obviously Dr Bowen hadn’t gone to the cellar to find it himself.
Is this something Lizzie didn’t have time to dispose of, or did she forget?
Was it Abby’s blood from earlier, and she didn’t need the towels after Andrew was killed?
I’m trying to make sense of it all, but feel like I’m missing a clue with it .Does any of it point to Bowen?
Hmm.
Page 28 WS
Had a talk with Lizzie about the deaths of her parents. I asked here where she was when this thing
happened. She said she was up stairs in the barn; and on coming into the house, found her father all cut
and bleeding on the lounge. She then called Maggie, and then Mrs. Churchill. She did not have any idea
who could have done it. I inquired about some cloths which looked to me like small towels, they were
covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She said that was all
right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been
there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to
him, and was all right.
I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and it contents. She said she had not noticed the pail
until that day, and it could not have been there two days before, or she would have seen it, and put the
contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing.

Yep, its one of many brain teasers from that day that create a tall stack of circumstantial or suspicious indicators against Lizzie.

The pail was just a couple feet from the cellar sink...so no clue why Lizzie wouldn't have just dumped it out if it had anything to do with the crime. If she carried to the cellar, why even set it down on the floor? 2 more seconds and she would have been at the sink.

Not retaining the pail and its contents is right there with the loss of the Prince Albert Coat on the top ten Police blunders list.

Since it was part of Bridget's job to do that type of laundry for the women of the family and she worked for the Bordens for 2 years and 8 months, what are they odds she knew when each woman would be adding to her soaking pail? 100%. Emma had been gone for two weeks and Abby was 64. That leaves only Lizzie and Bridget herself. If I had to bet, I bet Bridget knew if Lizzie was being honest about whose blood was in the pail.

The only reason I can think of for not dumping the pail is with the very weak fire in the kitchen, the wet rags wouldn't burn. Maybe it was the second needle in a box of needles instead of needle in a hackstack strategies. Use menstrual rags to clean up and make them look like they were used naturally, hidden in plain sight. Hide the hatchet in a bucket of hatchets, but make sure it looks old (poorly executed ash coating to all sides with heavy ash, applied while wet, rather that light fluffy ash dust only on the upper surface). Break the handle to make it appear useless. Dump it in a box of hatchets, again, hidden in plain sight.

I initially toyed with the idea that the handleless hatchet was soaking in the borax soap designed to remove blood, but I think the police found it Thursday in the early afternoon, so no go on that theory.

Yes, and given the pail was fresh on Bridget’s mind,the concern of Medley must have got her nerves going. Then whenever Bridget wants to do the natural thing and leave the house to go find Abby, now Lizzie all of a sudden hears Abby come home, and directs her upstairs.
Surely now Bridget is on high alert, about Lizzie’s involvement.
I just don’t understand how she continues up the stairs and into the guest room alone.
I must chalk it up to adrenaline, or shock.

Bridget initially refused to go to the guest room alone. It was only when Adelaide agreed to go with her that she went. She may have gone up the back stairs to get the sheets alone, not sure on that one. I think she also refused to spend the first night in the house, came back to make everyone breakfast Friday and spent one final night in the house and never returned, if the book I read was correct.

Cam, good points, I’m pondering if the towels were from Abby, and the plan was to add to them after Andrew was killed and dispose of all of them at the same time.
Something changed the plan, or the Prince Albert reduced the need for more towels and they were forgotten, and remembered too late. So Lizzie was desperate for a Dr to explain.

Or Lizzie was spooked by a noise while down cellar, ran up and called Bridget, then it was too late to chance going back down there.
Possibly thinking JVM had returned.
Something does appear out of script.

Bridget and Churchill went together to get the sheets.

Bridget had a serious dose of adrenaline going....she didn't even realize that Churchill had retreated back down the stairs as Bridget bolted into the bedroom to find Abby.

As you brainstorm on random oddities....might be interesting if you always add scenarios if there is a second person. Creates many miscommunication/misunderstanding possibilities. What if Lizzie or the other person was carrying the pail downstairs, but the other called them up urgently for some reason (another creative thinking exercise), so they set the pail down and it got forgotten in the ensuing chaos.

My thinking is that going for sheets behind locked doors is different from going up to search out a noise someone (possibly the killer) made. I realize Bridget and Miss Churchill went together, but my thoughts are that they would be holding hands and on those wooden floors that Bridget will certainly know when Mrs. Churchill went back down. If there’s a testimony that she did not know that Miss Churchill went back down I still don’t believe it personally.
I had actually thought that possibly it wasn’t Lizzie who left the pale downstairs, but possibly an accomplice. However, one thing is certain either Bridget was putting on airs about being afraid that morning to go up the stairs, or she really was beside herself with fear and adrenaline. My thoughts are that she had already started putting together in her mind that Lizzie was involved, but really had nowhere to go.
It seems that Miss Churchill wanted nothing to do with that house or any of those people involved after that day, I would love to know what her thoughts were deep inside about her neighbor, that she saw on a regular basis, even though they may not have been that close.
One thing that is standing out to me as I go back through the witness statements, is how many people said there was trouble,or not well in that house.

Bridget - Preliminary Hearing
Q. What did you do then?
A. We were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead's. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden; she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard her coming in and would not we go upstairs and see.
Q. Who said that?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go upstairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so, me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.
Q. Did you see her before you got in?
A. I saw her as I went in; but I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. Was the door open then into the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you disturb or touch the body in any way?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody while you were there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said you saw her before you went in?
A. Yes Sir, I could see her as I went in. Of course, the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress; and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came downstairs.
Q. Did anyone else come by that time?
Page 30
A. No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and her came downstairs and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was upstairs.

I had a feeling you’d provide the testimony..lol
Do you think it odd, that Dr Bowen had the ladies do all the dirty work (searching) in that house , and was he afraid?

Camgarsky is correct that Churchill only went part way, according to her testimony. I'll keep in mind the 2 person scenarios. I'm also thinking about making myself some visual aids as I read the testimony. Print out the floorplans and as I read the testimony move the chess pieces around to really follow what is being said.

I'm also putting the testimony into a database to give me more advanced search tools.

Hosea Knowlton Where were you standing when you first saw what you think was the prostrate form?
Adelaide Churchill About half way up the stairs I think.

Hosea Knowlton So your head was above the level of the floor?
Adelaide Churchill My eyes were on a level when I looked.

Hosea Knowlton What did you do then?
Adelaide Churchill I went down stairs.

Hosea Knowlton You did not go any further?
Adelaide Churchill I did not sir.

Hosea Knowlton Who went with you?
Adelaide Churchill Bridget.

Hosea Knowlton Did she go any further?
Adelaide Churchill I do not know how far she went.

Hosea Knowlton What happened when you got down stairs?
Adelaide Churchill I made a noise, a distressed noise, Miss Russell asked me if I had found another one. I said yes.

Hosea Knowlton Then what?
Adelaide Churchill I do not remember much more.

Hosea Knowlton Was Dr. Bowen there when you came back after having found Mrs. Borden?
Adelaide Churchill No sir.

Hosea Knowlton Did he come in again?
Adelaide Churchill Yes sir.

Hosea Knowlton Who was the next person you remember of coming in after Dr. Bowen, I think you said Miss Russell?
Adelaide Churchill Yes sir.

Inspector, there's your answer on if Bowen put the burden on someone else to check for Abby. Bowen was still at the telegraph office/pharmacy when Lizzie asked them to find her beloved step-mother.

Lorcan -- are you going to manually type testimony into your database? Is there a non-manual means to do that?

No, I am very, very carefully using deterministic python scripts. I have to do a bit of manual cleanup first. Using just plain AI causes problems. I'll share the plain text files when I'm done. First pass is only the actual sworn testimony, not any of the internal arguments between the judge and lawyers, opening and closing statements, etc. That will all come later.

I want to create what is called a knowledge graph (Neo4j) and when the project is relatively flaw free, I'll publish it as free open source software. I want to have a bunch of investigative tools, data lineage, source mapping, timeline charts, contradiction maps, etc. Then I can make it usable across any cold case, but the Borden case is the development proving ground.

I understood about 13% of what you just said. But it sounds super cool regardless!!

In case you hadn't already guessed, I'm a 64 year old corporate retiree who was spoiled by the IT department so I never had to learn what I wish I had learned.

Thanks for clarifying that Bowen was out when Lizzie directed them upstairs.
My recollection on that had failed me.
Floor plan layouts and new computer tools to analyze the case are exciting, even though I understand less than Cam does about what you said.
I really enjoy the improved photos you posted also,
Since both of you have been to the Borden home, I can only imagine that looking at floor plans is more realistic and useful than for others who haven’t.
Unless one’s memory is able to retain at a higher level, the ability to quickly reference data becomes one’s downfall in the case as far as presenting something new, or informative.
It’s obvious both of you have taken this seriously, and are able to get to the root of tough questions, and provide excellent references for your thoughts.
It’s great that most of the forum archives (which I have read almost all of them) —took a while,lol—also show a desire for the truth with little arguing in a rude way between posters.
I see a lot of patients from more organized and knowledgeable investigators like yourselves.
That has been much appreciated.

One tool I'll build is a keyword search bar that will dynamically pull up blocks of the 5 surrounding Q&A pairs, 2 above and 2 below the keyword that will allow you to see everywhere in all the testimony (Inquest, Prelim, Trial) where those words were said and who said them. Because there will be a claims database linked to the testimony or other data sources, conflict mapping, timeline linking, etc. - once I add all this data into the knowledge graph database, then visualizing these relationships and interdependencies can continuously improve as the technology improves.

My first goal, fundamental to all of this, is clean, accurate, digital data with as few mistakes as possible. Data is the treasure. The user interface, search, and visualization tools are continuously improving.

I'll make my clean, plaintext version of all the data available as I "finish" it, with the ask being anyone who finds a mistake tells me, so I can fix it.

Sorry to chime in, I have been greatly enjoying y'all's conversations here.
Side note: how odd would it have been for Abby to once she is back in the house to go to the FRONT upstairs and not the BACK which was where her and Andrew's room would be? I feel like that leading suggestion from Lizzie for them to check upstairs to be another potential indicator of her involvement. Presuming Abby came back from her visit of a sick friend from the note, (and as already stated, why not just come into see where Lizzie and others are gathered or horrible shocked at her husbands body had she come in the front), why would Abby go up the stairs to the guest/Lizzie/Emma portion of the house and not her room? Unfinished bed making business? Definitely increases my finger pointing to Lizzie.

Welcome aboard, it's good to have another investigator to help explore the case. Here is the thread where that whole topic is discussed:

viewtopic.php?t=6739

Hi Philmento!!

The fly in the ointment of this being another clear guilt indicator for Lizzie is that when she asks them to check upstairs, she doesn't specify front or back stairs. So its 50/50 if Lizzie indicted herself with the request. Maybe she pointed or something to shepherd them to the front stairway, but we just don't know why Bridget and Churchill chose the front stairs and, shocker, law enforcement apparently didn't ask.

There have been debates on whether Bridget interpreting Lizzie to mean the front of house was a possible slip up by Bridget...if she was involved in the killings. The counter argument is that Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had already, just minutes before, gone up to the back 2nd story to get the sheets to cover Andrew. So to finish searching the 2nd story per Lizzie's request would mean the front half of the house.

Keep posting....we haven't had this many active posters at the same time in several years.