Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The first time I ever saw a picture of the man. something told me he was the one, based on nothing but appearance, and before I knew anything about the case.
Author Rich Little. Cold Case Case Closed says it was JVM, and his book is gaining popularity with its second printing according to him.
I won’t read his book but have listened to a few of his interviews.
What got me thinking on JVM again is that Rich had the same idea as I —-JVM snuck back in.
I know JVM was seen mailing, but that doesn’t stop me from suspecting him.
The problem I have is he would have to kill Abby while Andrew is still at home, and for me that involves Lizzie,if one excludes Bridget, which I do.
I haven’t given much thought to JVM killing Andrew, primarily because so much research has been done,
Although, I don’t like the testimony of Charles Sawyer, or Morse’s involvement with the burial of items.

Rich states as fact that Andrew and John, had an argument over the cattle business. He also says that Lizzie overheard it, but this is absolutely his understanding of testimony which I don’t agree with.
Rich also gets things out of order when he talks about the case, such as Miss Churchill coming back after Bowen has already arrived, which obviously is not the case according to testimony. I do have to give him some slack because he’s 80 years old and just talks off the cuff, but I would expect a little more reference when it comes to his assertions.

Besides pure supposition, does he provide any evidence that John 'snuck back'? I'm assuming not since there isn't any. These authors don't have access to any information that we don't. Only exception would be if the FRHS has documents that they've shared with some, but not with the general public.

I think it was 'Possumpie' who once posted that we could fabricate a scenario against almost any character involved in the case if we were not limited by the burden of needing facts to support it.

A few reasons why I don't think it was JVM who swung the hatchets.

1. There is no sworn testimony about any of the JVM "evidence," as far as I know - I think someone at the Weybosset house gave a newspaper interview and then Officer Medley also interviewed her. Also the memorization of the trolly driver number, etc. - not sure where that came from, although it would be entirely normal for a rancher, cattle dealer, to be very observant with great short-term memory, since they have to count and grade animals as they pass through the gate to make sure none are missing nor injured, how much to pay for a group of cattle, etc. John Chisum was said to have been able to simultaneously keep track of 3 grades of cattle as they passed through a gate.

2. The Jennings Journals say Dr. Bowen was South of 92 Second Street, not Northeast visiting Weybosset Street, at the relevant time.

3. Neither the prosecution nor defense ever brought up what would be an amazing coincidence that Dr. Bowen and JVM would be at the Weybosset Street house at the same time the morning of the murders or even that Dr. Bowen was there at all.

4. The damage inflicted was consistent with a woman with the size and upper body strength of Lizzie or Bridget, rather than a man the size of Morse or any male over 14 years old. A full grown man of average upper body strength would have done far more damage in 3 to 4 blows than the 19 and 10 delivered.

5. I agree there is no way she was murdered with Andrew in the house. We would have to think he did not say goodbye to her, at least calling up the stairs to her? Or, that he would not have heard anything? From Lizzie's bedroom I clearly heard the ghost hunter host walking around the kitchen in modern sneakers. I also heard two people walking around upstairs in Bridget's room.

Does anyone know what the original source is on the JVM "evidence" (seemingly too perfect alibi because of his remembering too much detail)?

Defense attorney Arthur Phillips is the 'birth father' of this particular myth. Note that the book was finished and published after his death in 1941 and that some of the manuscripts were completed by someone else. We don't know if that includes the Borden chapter.

Jennings Journals are the case journals kept by Jennings & Phillips themselves. There are many entries regarding Morse in J.J. Never is anything about badge or street car #'s mentioned. Nowhere in police reports, testimony or newspaper coverage are these #'s mentioned. We know that Phillips wanted to be able to share particulars about the case in his book that would be new insights to drive interest and sales. It would appear that he either had a rusty memory (book written 40 years after the murders) or he took some liberties to spice it up.

Link to entire Lizzie Borden chapter in the Phillips book, "History of Fall River". If you read entire chapter, there are other inaccuracies in Phillips version of the case. At the same time, he seems to concur that Lizzie did try to buy Prussic acid (but for innocent reasons) and did make a laugh that Bridget heard. That is somewhat surprising.
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conte ... psBook.pdf

Click on image to enlarge

Rich did mention getting resources from FRHS, but nothing specific, unless it’s in his book.
He isn’t a long time student of the case, but I think he’s from Massachusetts. He coauthored the book, but like others just seemed to take a theory and run with it.
He did mention that Medley’s account is what doomed Morse.

Medley's account?

Yes, so Rich says, something about it doesn’t gel with newspapers.
I haven’t given it much thought, since he looks to be picking and choosing what is fact in both sources.

I just don’t see a motive for John , and no evidence there was a real dispute between him and Andrew.
He does some weird things, but I can see a motive unless he was paid off.
I’m wondering if he kept in touch with Emma.

Anything’s possible I suppose, but when authors state their theories as fact, I feel like I’m reading a fiction novel.

My main reason for the thread was to see if anyone has a theory that involves John.
I had recently pondered the comments he made about the Nathan murders, not to rehash old news, but more along the lines of why he said it.
Was it to shield himself, or Lizzie, and put in their minds that solving this case was pointless to pursue ?
Or is there a clue about what was on John’s mind?

I have his book and the separate printout page loose insert of "Medley's account." I haven't read it yet. Let me see what it says.

It looks to me like several contradictions to known facts, but I'll post it anyway, so we can all judge it ourselves and weigh the evidence.

My issues with Morse are (1) that he left the house moments before Abby was killed and returned moments after AJB was killed. That is a surreal sentence to process without any suspicions. (2) that he and Bridget disagree on when Bridget was told to wash the windows. This is also one of the few 'concerns' I have about Bridget.

This case will drive you nuts if every reported, but random comment is used to build an opinion. Determining context is almost more important than the comments themselves. Morse wandered around the Borden yard for several hours after the murders. He must have been thinking through numerous and varied ideas and thoughts.

I would hope he was just trying to process the grief of losing two friends, and with Lizzie inside with her close women friends, it wouldn't be a comfortable place for an uncle in there.

I wonder if he was concerned about years of letters exchanged with Emma, with Emma out of town, if her room was searched and she kept the letters somewhere in the house without telling anyone where - that might be a problem.

I wonder if he was trying to think of any business deals he promised that would have depended on Andrew and what the implications were now that their business was instantly done.

I wonder if he suspected something he said to either Lizzie or Emma lit the fuse.

The going to New Bedford comment is a strange one too.

That part is not so weird as I initially thought. The place in Dartmouth where he stayed with friends was only 3 miles from downtown New Bedford and I would guess the train ticket he would buy would be for New Bedford.

Someone found the modern address of the property that was part of the place he was staying at.

For completeness here are the maps I have for Morse's farms in Iowa.

Nice work!