Andrew Borden's Premonition

[camgarsky4]

I believe this is a new topic for this group.
Was Andrew just being a typical father and wanting to know where his kids would be or something specific to the family dynamics that summer?

Lizzie Borden: Past & Present. Leonard Rebello Page 82.
Andrew Borden's Premonition
"Did Andrew J. Borden, after living almost to the period allotted to man, have a presentiment that he would suddenly be taken ill or meet death? The remark he made to his daughter Emma just before she left home to go to Fairhaven indicates that he had something on his mind, for he was never known to make a statement like it.

Notwithstanding the numerous times they have been away from the home, he said, "Emma, if I should want you immediately while you are away, where shall I find you?" His inquiry had a pronounced effect on his daughter, and she inquired why he asked the question. He remarked, "Nothing in particular, only I feel that I would like to know in case anything should happen." Emma gave him the required information, and he apparently felt much better because of it. This is a peculiar fact in view of the terrible tragedy."
Fall River Daily Herald, August 10, 1892 Page 1.

[Lorcan]

I think it could be a premonition or simply someone trusted (a doctor, a professional colleague he respected) telling a story or making a comment that really brought mortality and getting affairs in order top of mind for Andrew. It could also be how he was feeling - an unexpected pain he never felt before - a shortness of breath that a certain hill never caused before, etc.

It could be Abby felt worried that in the event of his death, as things stood, his daughters would kick her to the curb at the first opportunity, and she wanted to be assured, legally, that there would be no contesting of asset division in court that would be a long process leaving her, at least temporarily, in a bad position.

I don't know how much of this is Victoria Lincoln or similar, but for the sake of argument let's assume Andrew was putting his affairs in order. I don't have the details on these, but perhaps someone does. Please answer if there is plausible evidence for each of these:

1. Andrew was working on a will, at least making an inventory for it.

2. Andrew decided to put property in Abby's name to assure her financial well being after his death.

3. Andrew was altering his business arrangement with Uncle John - perhaps asking him to oversee the Swansea Farms as an advocate for Abby if that was her inheritance. Not necessarily that John would run it day to day, but check in on it to make sure the investment was protected and being run properly a few times a year.

Then there is the area I heard about but have not been able to confirm anywhere in official testimony so far:

1. When was the argument that saw both daughters leave and Emma come back and Lizzie stay for a while at a boarding house?

2. How close was that to the murders?

3. Did Emma "get out of Dodge" so to speak the 2 weeks before the murders - did she get so worried Lizzie might do something, she didn't want to be around, or was the tension so high in the house it was simply too much for Emma to deal with?

[camgarsky4]

There is zero evidence or even contemporary suggestion that the family had an argument and the daughters left because of that. Same applies to the boarding house for Lizzie. I believe those comments are in the Lizzie Borden wikipedia writeup and elsewhere. To my knowledge, they are modern day fabrications or guesses. That is not to say a family argument didn't drive all those behaviors, just nothing to inform us of that.

Only indication that Andrew had a will on his mind are his comments to Morse (testimony) and Cook (witness statement which Cook partially denied at the PH). Reportedly found in Abby's clothing was a partial list of family assets.

Nothing about Andrew and Morse relationship concerning Swansea besides the letter Andrew wrote Morse that was read into evidence.

[Lorcan]

ok, let's treat Camgarsky's clarifications as an evidence sieve and see what we're left with:

1. Andrew wrote a letter to Uncle John Morse asking him to recommend a man to run his farm, but told Morse he wanted to speak to him in person before sending a man for him to interview. Does that mean Andrew wanted to have a back and forth conversation to make his requirements clear that would be inefficient or undesirable in a letter?

2. Andrew did not have a written will at the time of his death.

3. Andrew's lawyer almost certainly suggested a will to a man of Andrew's wealth, especially considering the number and variety of his assets (banks, mills, real estate, stock) and Andrew chose not to make one. That indicates to me he was ok with letting ordinary law play out for the distribution of assets. That seems very odd to me for a man who seemed like he had very specific and definite opinions about money matters.

I don't know what else we have that is documented or can be reasonably inferred. Back to the original question of a premonition. I think Andrew had to be aware of his age and his responsibilities to the 3 women for whom he was the only source of funds.

Given that Abby sent Bridget outside and willingly stayed alone in the house with Lizzie and that Andrew took a nap downstairs rather than his locked bedroom, I think maybe the tension was not as high as is often portrayed. I don't think either of the parents actually suspected they were in imminent danger from Lizzie.

[Inspector]

Cam, do you trust the FRDH article/comments to be true, and if so, on what basis? Emma doesn’t seem the type to give interviews, but perhaps someone close leaked the information.

To me it sounds like a normal thing for most parents, but hard to say with Andrew.

[camgarsky4]

The Daily Herald seems to be quoting Emma second hand, but they were not as 'renowned' as the Globe at sensational writings concerning the case. That said, I posted the info more as a curiosity, since it might or might not have any correlation to the crimes.

If I had to 'speculate' on a interesting reason for his request, might he have thought making family announcements could be forthcoming and wanted Emma in the loop if and when that occurred? Just stirring it up....I haven't a clue.

I agree with Lorcan that the elder Borden's had no clue they were in perilous danger.

Back to the known 'evidence' about Andrew and a will. I do find Charles C. Cook's witness interview and subsequent PH back tracking fascinating and a bit suspicious. To me, he is clearly trying to position himself to garner an expanded role with the Borden family and estate and did not want to upset the sisters. To that end, he was wildly successful, becoming Lizzie's business manager for the remainder of her life. For me, that gives some merit to what Medley wrote in his interview notes about Cook's comments, which make it seem that Andrew had a WILL at least partially on his mind.

[Lorcan]

Hmm, what if Andrew and Abby actually did want to share the information with the daughters and he wanted Emma at the dining room table for that discussion? Maybe that was to be the end of the tension - what's done is done - at least there is no more mystery or spiraling anxiety about their financial futures. Imagine Andrew calling Emma back, perhaps with the lawyer at the table as well.

The lawyer might open things up with a speech like this:

"All of your financial futures have been secured. Your parents asked me to be here to answer any and all of your legal concerns, so by the time we leave this table, everything is out in the open and you can all rest assured that your financial futures are completely secure. The entirety of Andrew's holdings are evenly split, with Abby keeping the house coming out of her portion. This was decided to be best since it is close to her half-sister and Emma and Lizzie have expressed strong interest in living elsewhere. The split is roughly 35% to Emma, 35% to Lizzie and 30% plus this house to Abby. Do you have any questions or concerns?"

[camgarsky4]

As fair as that outcome sounds to me.....I bet the discussion would have got really interesting once the lawyer was done with his speech.

[TeenaBee]

Yes, I also wonder at the Herald's source. It is maddening how often reporters did not attribute what they wrote up for publication.

If it was legitimately something Andrew said to Emma, I think Lorcan's supposition reasonable that Andrew could have been experiencing symptoms of old age, feeling a little wobbly in his health. That could also be why he was starting to hint at the idea of making a will.

But also, from my Lizzie-maybe-didn't-do-it perspective in which I think police failed to do their due diligence in investigating other potential enemies of Andrew, it seems possible that stubborn Andrew could have been experiencing some kind of conflict with a powerful someone he sat on some board with, someone he was standing in the way of getting something they wanted, someone he worried could escalate the conflict. Pure speculation :) But the man did soon end up murdered, so perhaps the Herald reporter was onto something when he wrote about a "premonition"...