Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Since Emma testified it was hers and Lizzie’s routine to clean the guest room it appears there was possibly a bit of ownership in the room for the sisters, as they also entertained and did their sewing in there.

What do you think Lizzie felt about Abby doing the cleaning in there on August 4th, and what was Abby’s intention.

I wonder if Lizzie hated her it may have enraged her to see her up there, but I wonder if Abby had good intentions.

Lizzie also 'tells us' Abby kept some clothing items in the guest room and that the sewing machine was used by all the women of the house (except presumably Bridget). Can't imagine Abby had a malevolent reason for tidying up after Morse's stay.

It is surprising that Emma claims this was the first time she was aware of Abby cleaning the guest room. But maybe we shouldn't be surprised since we have good reason to think staying away overnight was an extremely uncommon event for Emma, so the need for Abby to clean the room might have been unprecedented. So back to your question, maybe Lizzie did have some 'unhinged' reaction to Abby cleaning the room.

Oh, you’re right, Emma did say that.
It’s amazing how many things came together at the time of Abby’s demise.

The only sewing machine in the house was in that room and in testimony a point is made that when the yearly dresses were being made, Abby, Emma, Lizzie, and the dress maker all worked in that room together.

The natural thing would be that whomever's guest it was, they would clean the room. So, if Emma and Lizzie had Alice over, they would clean the room, but if it was a guest of Andrew and Abby, Abby would clean it. I think Emma did most of the cleaning among her and Lizzie. I think Emma had cleaning duty for the front parlor, too.

I wonder if when Emma was home, she would clean the guest room no matter who was staying there. Lizzie alone, might have been a different situation. I just don't see Lizzie cleaning up after Uncle John in 1892 given the way she treated his visit prior to the murders (not greeting him).

Rich Little has a theory the John usually stayed in the 3rd floor guest room and I think he did when he was on longer visits so as not to interfere with the sewing and Lizzie's and Emma's ability to have guests and entertain visitors. He also thinks Uncle John had a relationship with Bridget, which I highly doubt.

The real narrowing down of the Abby murder window seems to be her presence in the room while alone in the house with Lizzie. I think that Andrew would have communicated a good-bye of some sort with Abby before he left, but at a minimum, it makes no sense that Lizzie would risk killing Abby with Andrew in the house. I think the movies show the safest situation - Lizzie verifying Bridget was outside for an extended period of time doing the windows, but I think it may be when Camgarsky thinks it happened, while Bridget was sick in the back yard.

I think the reason John showed up with no luggage was John planned on being back "home" at Dartmouth after arranging the oxen sale and talking to Andrew. I'm not sure why Abby gave him the 2nd floor guest room rather than the 3rd floor guest room. Perhaps the weather - sticking him up on the 3rd floor in August might have been the reason. Annoying Lizzie might have been the reason, too. Maybe she was trying to teach Lizzie a lesson for not greeting her Uncle by putting him in the next door room.

All good points.

I've always found the folks poking on John's lack of luggage to be silly. Maybe 'TMI', but if I go on a short trip, I pack as little as possible and if there is not a reason to bring 'nicer' outfits, I wouldn't have brought anything either. The other item posters jump on is the lack of a toothbrush. Maybe Morse didn't take proper care of his teeth, that wouldn't be unprecedented or probably even unusual back then.

I also agree that Abby cleaned the room because it was Morse and not Lizzie's guest. It would be 'cleaner' if Emma hadn't said that she never knew of an instance of Abby cleaning the room. That said, I view much of what Emma testified with a bit of a 'squinted eye'.

Morse himself testified that he had stayed in the attic and in the guest room. Bridget was very forthcoming about the breadth of her responsibilities, and I think she would have mentioned if she cleaned up the attic room after Morse. Pretty safe bet that Emma and Lizzie didn't.

So, all in all, I don't think any suspicious or circumvent should be read into Abby deciding to clean the guest room. One final thought, I don't think it is definite that Lizzie lied about Abby telling her a visitor was coming Monday. Why was the lie necessary? We (forum folks) had a theory of who the visitors were.... forgotten now who. I think it was someone in the Fish wing of Abby's family tree.

I resurfaced a couple of threads while searching for the Fishes. There was another very short thread that mentioned an article about the Fishes that Kat posted. I'll try to find it.

Mr Fish thought Lizzie and JVM worked together if memory serves.

Lorcan— I disagree that “it makes no sense “ that Abby was killed before Andrew left.
Such a dogmatic statement means you have absolute proof, problem is, the time period we’re discussing is one that has mesmerized researchers for over a century.
I think we need to look at the case from angles that are new, otherwise we are going in circles.
Not trying to be rude, and it wouldn’t be wise , however it is theoretically possible.

After staying in the house I am very confident about the sound transmission. A woman standing next to me dropped her iPhone onto carpet while I was standing at the foot of Abby's bed and it thudded so loudly some people jumped. Laying on a bed in Lizzie's larger bedroom, I could clearly hear every footstep (he was wearing sneakers) of the ghost tour guide in the kitchen while simultaneously hearing both women walk around the 3rd floor. The front staircase is an acoustic tunnel.

There may have been more ambient noise back then, but still, 200+ lbs Abby versus an iPhone is just too much. Not only the weight...and I think she had to be standing because the flap wound goes from the cheek to the ear, not downward and the second blow (almost certainly) was the miss to the skull that hit below her neck - they both indicate a standing first blow face to face, then turning away and falling or diving down, then with the bruising on the forehead and face, that was likely the initial impact or the skull being driven into the floor 17 times.

I agree, we should try to think through every theory in an embodied way, picturing ourselves at the scene, with the sights, sounds, smells, lines of sight, surrounding environment, and the mental models they had at the time. No offense taken. Being there in person and feeling the reverberation when the iPhone hit the carpeted floor just leaves me with no choice but to imagine the sounds of Abby's murder reverberating through the house.

There’s no substitute for actually being there, I had planned a trip years ago, but it didn’t materialize.
If hypothetically Abby wasn’t kneeling, and made a loud noise when falling, I agree someone inside would be alerted, especially with successive blows while Abby was down.

I think the multiple hatchet blows would get as much attention as her falling, maybe more .

Lorcan -- I would agree that a loud abrupt thud in the guest room would be noticeable in the parlor, front foyer and dining room, and probably the sitting room (status of bedroom door would be a factor). But not so sure that would be the case in the kitchen, IF, the person in the kitchen is actively doing their own thing. For example, if Bridget is busy washing the dishes, thinking about her stomach and peering out the window at squirrels, I'm not convinced she would take notice if there was a loud thud from front of house that lasted a single second. If the murder played for several second of loud noises, that would change my view. I have no clue how well the sound of bashing someone's skull would carry. Just typing that last sentence reminded me how frighteningly self-absorbed one must be to do that to someone for selfish reasons.

Ambient noise is important, but attention and behavior of the listener is equally key. When you were listening for noises in Lizzie's room, I'm guessing you were testing the idea of how easily noise carried.

Ambient noise—Hmm.. I wonder if the rhythmic sound of a hatchet could’ve been mistaken for the clacking of horse hooves.

For ambient noise you have hoof traffic, the ice house, the sawing and masonry from Crowe yard. Maybe Camgarsky or TeenaBee had a different experience, but I walked around that house in my socks at night and the floors creaked, the stairs creaked, all the nicknacks vibrated and tinkled because none of the floors were perfectly flat and the furniture rocked a bit as you walked by.

Keeping with more relevant evidence, Lizzie testified her parents talking with Uncle John in the sitting room annoyed her enough to shut her bedroom door. Also, Bridget testified she could hear the north side first floor screen door from her south side third floor bedroom.

The house was built in 1845, so it was 47 years old at the time of the murders, so I bet those floors creaked back then, too. Insulation wasn't as effective and that is 47 humid summers and brutal winters shrinking and expanding that wood. I imagine the trouble with the front door lock might have been from the door slightly expanding in the heat and humidity over the summer.

I know Knowlton had a note "find a 200lbs. man" and he intended to test a fall, but I think they couldn't definitively prove she fell. Perhaps lividity bruising was arguable on the forehead or they simply couldn't prove the level of ambient noise. I imagine Lizzie's lawyers would fight tooth and nail to prevent the jury from hearing a 200lb man hit that floor because I can tell you I think the house would have shook. I was doing ninja style nightengale floor walking around in my socks, heel toe like a catburglar and I could not walk around that house without making a ridiculous amount of noise.

That’s very interesting Lorcan. I hadn’t thought of all the sawing at Crowe’s , and with all the horse and carriage, plus usual house noises which you speak of, for me it gives a bit more possibility that Lizzie might risk the attack just prior or right as Andrew was leaving, especially if she knew Abby would soon be headed back downstairs for good.
I think Abby finishing up in the guest room could be the trigger, otherwise it may have been her heading up for the pillow shams.

When we consider the cellar and 3 floors, the house has decent square footage, but it is just 15 ordinary paces from the front door to the back of the kitchen and 10 paces across the width of the house. Inspector, I hope you get the chance to visit. If Lizzie is innocent and she was in either the kitchen or the dining room, she was 5 to 10 paces from being directly underneath the murder. I have no idea why she didn't say she wasn't feeling well and spent a lot of the morning in the cellar water closet.

Specific tests would need to be performed which include scenarios of a 1) full body fall, 2) body falls against bed and then the floor and 3) body drops to knees and then full body. Optimally they would be conducted in a way that the 'listener' was not aware they were being executed and the listener was positioned in various rooms. These tests are doable but would require different listeners in the various rooms to ensure the listener is not 'looking' for a noise.

Maybe we could all meet in Fall River and convince the B&B to let us conduct these tests.
Only semi-joking. I'm planning on going to Fall River next year assuming the FRHS actually opens this time (they've pushed back the opening a couple years in a row already).

If we had Rich Hill's grandson (or whomever that is) do a live podcast, the B&B might embrace the idea of free marketing and case publicity?

Hearing the screen door bang closed in the attic was referenced previously as an example that noise in the house carried. I think it is more indicative of the location of the staircase than anything to do with the Borden house being a noise porous home.

Question posed to AI:
Would a screen door that bangs when it closes be easily heard on the 3rd story, if a 3-story staircase is adjacent to the door?

Yes, absolutely.  A banging screen door creates a sharp, sudden impulse sound that is almost guaranteed to carry to the 3rd story due to how staircases handle sound. 
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The Borden home was 47 years old at the time of the murders, but it is now 134 years older than at the time of the murders. If 47 years made the house less able to absorb noises, then 134 years would be exponentially more 'pro noise'.

It was roughly 30-40 feet from the front of house to the kitchen. The kitchen door to the sitting room was kept closed. A floor which could support heavy furniture was between the 1st and 2nd floor. A couple walls were between the parlor (directly below the guest room) and kitchen. A person in the kitchen would have their mind on whatever they were doing...not focused on if a sudden noise occurs.

To my previous post, Abby could have fallen to the ground in a number of ways, majority of which would dramatically lessen the noise as compared to a full-face plant.

All are free to interpret situations as they wish, but it is absolutely possible that the house had another occupant and they didn't hear what happened to Abby. It's no secret that I am convinced Lizzie was involved in the murders, so not trying to disprove her guilt. Just want make sure viewers know that there are divergent views on how well sound and noise reverberated thru that house.

Camgarsky - what was the sound environment like while you were there? Was your experience similar to what I described?

I was there in the middle of the day. I remember standing in the dining room, thinking that it was possible no noise was heard, so I must have not been able to detect anything that made me think otherwise. The house also seemed more spacious than I was expecting. I had read so much about how small it was that I was taken by surprise that it really wasn't small (in my opinion).

I wish we knew if there were metal grates between the floors to help with the flow of rising heat in the winter to the upper floors. I owned a 3-story home built in 1905 and it had those grates. In fact, I kept some of them...not sure why, but they are decorative and seemed like something to hang onto. If they existed, then that is how Lizzie could have easily eavesdropped on the sitting room and Abby falling would have been heard distinctly in the parlor at a minimum.

Since the Second street house was originally built as two separate apartments, I doubt the grates existed, but maybe Andrew had them put in. Very effective way to warm upper stories of a house.

Apparently, my kids used these to listen in on the 'adults' on the first floor. Even though I knew they were there, I would not think about it.

They look just like this.