Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I've been reading Bridget's trial testimony and occasionly run into some curious things. This for example on page 206:

"Q. After you had got your wood and coal and started your fire, what is the next thing that you did?
A. I unlocked my door and took in the milk and put a pan out for the ice man and a pitcher with some water in it. "

Why a pitcher of water? Does she mean she put the pitcher outside with the pan? It doesn't make sense to me.

I agree Harry, it doesn't seem to make much sense. It sounds like she is leaving the pitcher outside as you say, but for what ? Does she leave it for the ice man to use to rinse the ice pan out ?...to rinse his hands off ?...to get a drink ?...is it something she herself will use later on ?


Tracy...

It is strange. In her Prelim. testimony, she says the iceman came into the house. She opened the door to let him in at a quarter to seven.

Maybe she's saying that she took the milk in and then put the pan and the pitcher not 'out' as in outside -- but rather 'out' as in 'at the ready'?

Perhaps there was a special pan in the icebox to hold the ice -- and maybe if she had a pitcher filled with water, the iceman would chip a little ice into it for her? Just guessing here. . .

OMG! I read the same item at the same time you did Har!
Well, actually I was looking at that question specifically around 4 a.m. Tuesday into Wednesday! And then I went to bed.

I thought Bridget was putting water out for the delivery man to drink. But for all we know he only came from the Ice House on Third Street. He wouldn't be thirsty yet.
I keep thinking of those teamsters and the dusty roads.
My neighbor always put a pitcher of water out for her lawn guys. She was born in 1916.

I had always taken that to mean she left it for the ice man to help himself to. But it could mean any of the other things y'all have mentioned, too. Frustrating, not knowing just what she means.

It was for his horse.

Then why not a pan of water for the horse and a pitcher for the man?

There were horse troughs about the city for horses to drink water from, like those ones you see in western movies. Some were pretty elaborate, Lotta Crabtree gifted one to the city of San Francisco that was part drinking fountain for people and it had a horse trough too. So, I don't think Bridget would put out water for the horse. As for the iceman, according to Bridget, he came into the house, so, why would she need to put out a pitcher of water for him when she could just hand him a glass of water in the house? I'm going along with Diana's take on it, that Bridget meant that she set out a pitcher of water in the house, possibly for the breakfast table.

Yes I agree. Getting out or putting out a pan for the ice to be received into/onto and then slid into the fridge.
Maybe the old ice from before had first to be removed- like when we used to have to defrost the freezer?
Water poured onto the existing piece would melt it enough to be able to chisel it loose in order to replace it with a nice big new piece.

I was joking about the water. Is someone implying that Bridget put it out there for Lizzie and her to wash up? Otherwise i see no bearing.

I was just searching through Bridget's testimony in the Preliminary Volume 1 and came across this: Page 59

Q. Did you go in while they were eating breakfast?
A. Putting the breakfast on the table, and pouring the water into glasses, and passed it around. I did not go in until they got through.

Maybe that pitcher of water was for the breakfast table afterall?

That was what 1st crossed my mind too, Susan. Only it seems strange for her to run it all together with when the iceman cometh. Generally, Bridget seems to be very precise & during the trial, witnesses were asked to clarify if something wasn't understood, which makes me think they understood what she was saying. We need someone who knows about the rituals of ice delivery.

I saw that too, you guys, and wondered. Harry has a good idea of what the iceman does. He remembers!
He told me water probably wouldn't be needed in the transfer of ice.

Ah, great minds think alike. From what I've read on sites that deal with ice delivery, you put a sign in the window to let the iceman know how many pounds you wanted and he would break the piece to size with his tools. Sometimes the block of ice was a little too big and needed to be chipped and chiseled to fit into the box on top. Some sites mentioned that he was such a trusted guy (in smaller towns I'm assuming) that they would just leave their back doors unlocked so he could bring the ice in if no one was there. I couldn't find anything about what they did with the block of ice that might have been left in there. Maybe they just added more on top of it? Harry?

so perhaps the back door was left open for the iceman in the morning at the "sealed" borden house.

john @ Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:08 am wrote:so perhaps the back door was left open for the iceman in the morning at the "sealed" borden house.

I would doubt that the door was left open for anyone. There were two doors, an outer screen door which was "locked" with a hook and a inner wooden door which I believe had a bolt.

"Q. After you took in the milk can, did you do anything to the screen door?
A. Hooked the door.
Q. Did you shut the wooden door up again?
A. No Sir.
Q. Left that open?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that kept open all day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the habit at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was the screen door kept at that time?
A. About quarter of seven I opened it for the ice man to come in.
Q. When you opened it, did you unhook it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After the ice man came in, did you hook it again?
A. I cant say, I dont remember.
Q. Do you know how that was usually kept, that screen door, hooked or not?
A. It was hooked most of the time. I kept it hooked as far as I could know about it."

Bridget testified that Abby came down (6:30-6:40) before the ice was delivered. Uncle John was also downstairs in the sitting room. Andrew came down, according to Bridget, about 10 minutes after Abby (6:40-6:50).

When we had a delivery of ice the ice man would put the ice in the ice box himself. If there was still a piece of old ice left he would take his ice pick and chisel it and break it into small pieces. Those he would put back in on the top and side of the new block. Ice melts pretty quick and I don't ever remember it being a problem. I don't remember whether there were daily deliveries or not but there probably was.

I do remember the iceman ("Joe") giving the kids on the street pieces of ice which he chipped off. We'd mind his truck while he made his deliveries. We lived on the third floor of a 3 story tenement and he would trudge up those back porch steps with a block of ice on his shoulder protected by a burlap bag.

Thanks, Harry, so no pitcher of water for the iceman. From what I've read, in the 1890s, ice was manufactured at ice factories. If there was a mild winter, there wasn't much ice to be had from the ponds and streams. And it sounds as though ice was delivered daily, heres an example:

"In earlier days residents of ``urban'' areas such as Maryville had ice plants. Maryville Ice & Coal Co. was the major firm here for many years. Until trucks came along, they delivered ice daily, using horse-drawn wagons. The ice was covered with a heavy canvas during delivery. Residences along the delivery route were given cards which they could hang near their front door if they needed ice.

The card could be turned to 25, 50, 75 or 100 with the number at the top indicating the number of pounds of ice needed. The delivery man, using an ice pick, would chisel off the amount requested.

Most often the resident would leave the change for the ice on the ice box lid. Without bothering the resident, the delivery man would place the ice in the box which was often located on an open back porch."

From this site:
http://www.thedailytimes.com/sited/story/html/181301

The Bordens probably had the ice man come in because it was all women there- they may not have wanted Bridget or Andrew to heft the thing and they were up anyway.

Now, if the Bordens had a sign, and it was set at 100 lbs., we'd know murder was planned because they needed extra ice!

Thanks Susan.