Lizzie Borden Society Forum

At the end of the trial on June 22, 1893, ex-Gov. Robinson, Lizzie's lawyer, gave an interview (page 328, Sourcebook) which contained the following:

"Has Miss Borden formulated any plans?"
"I don't know that she has. Her present plans are, I think, to take an entire rest. She has gone to Fall River and will take up her residence in the old home. The house will be cleansed from the evidence of the crimes. The present condition, which is, of course, just as it was left on the morning of the murders, is far from pleasant, but Miss Borden considers that as her home...."

This is now more than 10 months after the crimes. The house was not secured as a crime scene and Lord knows the number of people who were in and out of those rooms during that period.

Poor Emma had to endure the blood stained carpet and walls of the sitting and guest rooms for this period.

I cannot understand why the police would not let the house be cleaned fter they had removed all the evidence that was presented at the trials.

How much WAS left? I had heard that Emma had scrubbed the walls of stains within a few days of the murder "accidentally" wiping away evidence as no one told her "not to". Is this incorrect?

Wow, that is weird, Harry. I know they took up the area of carpet that was bloodstained in the guest room, but, did they also do that in the sitting room too? I can't imagine Emma and her housekeeper living with a room with a big chunk of carpet missing for that time. I guess Emma could have closed off the guest room as I can't see as she would have guests visiting and wouldn't need to use it as a sitting room anymore. And, is she did have anyone over, would she use the sitting room for that visit? I would think people would want to come over and gawk at where Andrew died, that would leave the parlor.

I have wondered about that, how many people came to call just to get a look at where the murders took place? How much clean up was left? Maybe a throw rug was placed over the missing patches of carpeting to hide them? That had to be hard for Emma living with those constant reminders day after day. I think maybe Emma was stronger than most give her credit for. Weren't visitors traditionally received in the parlor anyway?

Evidence at trial:
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Piece of plaster.


Exhibits at trial:
20 - 21. Carpets [plural]

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm
.....
The sofa was removed and taken away, eventually ending up at court.

What was buried:
"one large piece of Brussels carpet"- Witness Statements, Chase, 42.

--It seems as if 2 pieces of carpet were exhibited at the trial (items #20 & #21).. This could mean that the sitting room carpet was taken before that time. It doesn't sound like it was buried tho. Since pieces of the moulding, doorframe, and plaster were evidence, we know these were cut out and taken. So it doesn't sound like the house was the same for that 10 months, and I think Robinson was full of it, if he even really said it.
Emma cleaned the parlour door before the funeral I believe, but that's all, I think.

Pippi @ Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:21 pm wrote:How much WAS left? I had heard that Emma had scrubbed the walls of stains within a few days of the murder "accidentally" wiping away evidence as no one told her "not to". Is this incorrect?

This is from Dr. Dolan's Preliminary hearing testimony, page 178+

Q. Did you as any time give directions or permission to any member of the family to wash or clean the paint in any of the rooms?
A. No sir.
Q. Did not you down stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did not someone ask or suggest that they might clean up the wood work of the sitting room, and was not it given, to be done?
A. No sir, not as I recollect. I recollect I gave positive orders for it not to be done.
Q. That was afterwards; I mean early, after you had taken a view, and after you had counted these spots. Do you remember at any time seeing Mrs. Holmes there at the house?
A. Yes sir, several times.
Q. Was it immediately after this occurrence?
A. I think so, I think I saw her the same day, I wont be sure.
Q. Do not you now recollect that you gave her permission, I mean in substance, permission or leave to clean up around there and re-arrange things, and that some such work was done in the way of cleaning the paint?
A. I do not recollect it sir.
Q. Are you prepared to say that you did not give any such permission or direction?
A. I do not recollect having given any such permission.
Q. If Mrs. Holmes should say so, you would not be inclined to dispute her?
A. I should certainly be inclined to dispute her as to her understanding of it, and say that there was a misunderstanding.
Q. Do you claim that any member of the family, or any person there, willfully cleaned up, or changed the situation of things?
A. I am not prepared to say whether they did or not.
Q. Any one of the ladies of the house who were there at those times in this living room, this sitting room where he was found, where you found these spots of blood upon the kitchen door and the parlor door, are you prepared to say any one of them willfully removed those spots?
A. There were some spots removed.
Q. Would you think they did any of them willfully remove any of the spots?
A. I should say they did.
Q. Wilfully, I mean.
A. I should say they did.
Q. Who?
A. I do not know.
Q. When was it willfully done?
A. Probably the next day.
Q. After the killing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. From what door or place were those spots removed?
A. From the parlor door.
Q. Had you counted them before they were removed, and ascertained their location?
A. Not accurately.
Q. Had you counted them before they were removed?
A. Yes Sir, I had.
Q. Then you knew the number?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many less are there now than there were at the time of the killing?
A. I could not say.
Q. How many were on the parlor door in all?
A. I think eight spots on the parlor door, and on the north jamb of the door.
(Mr. Knowlton.) They were on the sitting room side of the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All you are discussing with reference to the parlor door was on the sitting room side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there any other spots removed from any other place in the sitting room, so far as you know?
A. Not that I am aware of, no sir.

If that was all that Emma cleaned it left a lot of blood on the walls and doors.

Kat @ Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:56 pm wrote:Exhibits at trial:
20 - 21. Carpets [plural]

Thanks, Kat. Well that answers that question, but, another though occured to me, if the woodwork in the Lizzie Borden B&B is original, were pieces of wood fitted into the missing spaces where the chunks of trim were taken out or the whole piece simply replaced with a new one? It would be interesting to see exactly where these spots were chiseled out on the door jambs and such.

Thanks for posting all that, Harry. My guess as to why Emma cleaned only the parlor door in the sitting room might be because as you came from the back of the house into the sitting room and were going towards the front hall, you would see that door. Coming from the front hall and going through the door into the dining room to get to the kitchen, it wouldn't be in your line of vision. I wonder if that route was used more often? Trying to get around that sofa into the kitchen seems as though it may have been a difficult maneuver, though not impossible. Even with the sofa gone, old habits die hard.

I've always had this weird feeling that the Borden girls were as enamoured of that parlour as supposedly Abby was, and I see Emma cleaning only that door because it was The Parlour.

When I was at the Mourning Display in a local house like the Borden's but smaller, I was told the family did not sit in the room where the funeral and caskets were, but stayed in the parlour away and separate from all that.
I assume Emms wanted at least that door clean for the funeral.
The girls did seem to take it over very soon, maybe because they stopped using the sitting room of necessity?

I believe it was Brown who warped my mind about Emma washing the walls the day after due that no one said to do it or not and the accuracy was then off. So some blood was washed, some was not...THAT is a creepy way to live why not find friends to stay with THEN dear Emma dear Emma...

OOPs. I made a mistake. But it's due to the sitting room being used for the funeral, in the Borden case.

The mourning practice was to show the body in the Parlour, and the family to wait it out in the sitting room/ living room.

That is where the phrases come from:
The Funeral "Parlour was the parlour in the home to begin with.

The "Living Room" was where the living family sat and waited through the viewing and funeral.

The Bordens did things differently.