Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Does any one know if lizzie had any male callers, especially after the trail? Or did she never have any one calling on her? she must have been an spinster even after the trail. Guess may be men might have scared to go out with her? And what about her sister? Did she have any visitors? Or maybe they were gay(Lisban) which wouldn't have been an acceptable idea in the 1880's

Life was different back then, and I don't think Lizzie or Emma were ever tied to any man. I do think Lizzie probably was a Lesbian, but what does that have to do with the murders? It was not popular to admit you were a homosexual then , and it is not popular now without ridicule. I don't think her sexuality is relevent, and I don't think Emma is suspect either. Emma was the more prim and proper lady, not everybody gets married and has children. Lizzie probably had more freedom to experiment with her sexuality after the murders, to finally have a say so in her life without the constraints of what is expected of you per say.

Smudgeman @ Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:43 pm wrote:Life was different back then, and I don't think Lizzie or Emma were ever tied to any man. I do think Lizzie probably was a Lesbian, but what does that have to do with the murders? It was not popular to admit you were a homosexual then , and it is not popular now without ridicule. I don't think her sexuality is relevent, and I don't think Emma is suspect either. Emma was the more prim and proper lady, not everybody gets married and has children. Lizzie probably had more freedom to experiment with her sexuality after the murders, to finally have a say so in her life without the constraints of what is expected of you per say.

Well if you believe Lizzie was a lesbian, it might have something to do with a motive. What would Andrew and Abby have thought of such a thing?

I believe that back in 1800's admitting to being a lesbian would have surely cost Lizzie her inheritance...maybe there was something between Lizzie and Bridget..maybe this only added to the rift between Lizzie and Abby...maybe she found out and so Lizzie killed her....who knows.
But i agree..it could be a motive...Or maybe she did tell her father and he was going to change his will...so she killed them both before this took place......

I have heard that at that time people were less concerned about pairing up as they are now. It was a concern for women, certainly, because of their economic status...but otherwise someone living alone for the rest of their life was not necessarily viewed as a desperate person like nowadays. And socially speaking, the prudence of someone who remained single was a recommendation towards good christian moral character, was it not?

I found this in a new item contained in the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook on page 133.It's from the Fall River Herald:

" A Herald reporter called on a member of the Borden family and asked if she could answer the question. At first a refusal was met with, but finally the following was obtained: "The cause of Mr. Morse's visit to this city was known by few members of the family. It has never been divulged, for the reason that family pride tried to conceal it. There is always a skeleton in most houses, and the home of Mr. Borden's was no exception. By members of the family it was known that Lizzie regarded Mr. Morse with more tenderness than most nieces feel for thier uncles. This Mr. Borden was aware of, and he was constantly on the alert to see that the breath of scandal did not reach his home. Why should Mr. Morse make his residence at Dartmouth while on the visit if something did not prevent him accepting the hospitality of his nieces?"

"Do you know if Lizzie ever had a young man calling at the house?" was asked.

"No, I do not think she had. She used to attend church with a near neighbor, and no suspicion of wrongdoing was ever attached to that."

" Could you state as to ho Mr. Borden regards allowing his daughters to keep company with young men?"

"Mr. Borden, as was known by all people aquainted with him, was a very strict and stern man. He never opposed his daughters in this matter provided the parties were respectable, and it can truthfully be said that outside of the fact stated above the Bordens never gave their father an opportunity to chide them as to the company they kept. They haughty and cold nature of Lizzie was repellant to most people, and it was seldom taht she was seen on the street in male company unless attended by the friend who went to and from church with her. No, I do no know whether Mr. Morse and Lizzie were in the habit of having carriage rides, bu it would not be impossible for them to do so without my knowledge. The wish I have for Lizzie is taht she will clear herself of horrible charge that is preferred against her, though at present it looks very black for her."

wintressanna @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:15 am wrote:I have heard that at that time people were less concerned about pairing up as they are now. It was a concern for women, certainly, because of their economic status...but otherwise someone living alone for the rest of their life was not necessarily viewed as a desperate person like nowadays. And socially speaking, the prudence of someone who remained single was a recommendation towards good christian moral character, was it not?

Do you mean that someone who never married or had children was considered more moral than someone who married and had a family?

Ok..so what is being implied here? Was she that close to her uncle? I know that this was not unheard of in those days, but... Was she a Lesbian or involved in incest? Wow this story just gets better and better.... But seriously, she stood to lose ger inheritance if either were discovered.

Yeah actually, I have heard that at that time, since marriage in the Bible is a cure for the sin of lust, that remaining single is a testimony of a lack of problems with the usual sins, and therefore meaning someone who is of stronger christian fiber than the rest of us who have to resort to such measures of marriage to bar against the worst...mad fornication!

wintressanna @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:36 am wrote:Yeah actually, I have heard that at that time, since marriage in the Bible is a cure for the sin of lust, that remaining single is a testimony of a lack of problems with the usual sins, and therefore meaning someone who is of stronger christian fiber than the rest of us who have to resort to such measures of marriage to bar against the worst...mad fornication!

I always thought the Bible promoted marriage. Be fruitful and prosper?
Besides at that time, woman were married at an even younger age than they are today. Marriage was a woman's basic duty in life. To get married and have children is what she was raised to do.

This is a site that talks about "The Rest Cure"...it was a cure that was used for women that supposedly suffered from "hysteria". Or depression, it basically could be prescribed for any number of illnesses. I think this speaks towards how women were treated back then as well, here is a paragraph from that site.


"Doctors of this era played an important role in shaping cultural attitudes, bringing "the clear light of scientific objectivity to the Woman Question" (Ehrenreich, 1978, pg.104). It was a common medical conviction at the time to assert that higher education for women would actually impede their childbearing capacities. This belief rested on the assumption that within the human body there was a finite amount of energy to be expended, limited resources for which the various organs must compete. If a woman were to exert herself by engaging in scholarly work, the inexorable result was thought to be uterine atrophy and ailing babies (Ehrenreich, 1978, pg. 115). S. Weir Mitchell's contribution to the debate over female education was very much in keeping with the ideologies of his day: "Overuse, or even a very steady use, of the brain is in many dangerous to health and to every probability of future womanly usefulness" (Mitchell). Even more ominous was the counseling of Harvard professor Dr. Edward H. Clarke: "Women beware. You are on the brink of destructionŠ Science pronounces that the woman who studies is lost" (Clarke quoted in Ehrenreich, 1978, pg. 115)."


http://www.sondraslair.com/hysteria.html

Yes "be fruitful and multiply" is in the Bible, in the Old Testament.
But Paul, father of the new church after Christ's ascension, says that it is better for christians to be like him, and never marry. But if you are burning with lust, then marriage is the way to deal with it. I can look up the reference if anybody's interested. Since then, there have been periods of time when women in christian communities have been caught in this trap: that their bodies naturally create lust in men(the sin of Eve), so their sole purpose is to be good and dutiful wives...but if they had escaped this unscathed by scandal, then they are above average reproach. Something like that :)

Yes, but we are talking about the victorian era, where women were raised with the ideal that their only mission in life was of getting married and having a family. That was their ultimate goal and purpose. Which is that those links I posted talk about. Most of the time the only things they were ever educated on while growing up were how to take care of the house and a husband, and social etiquette. Women did not receive proper education as a man did. Because it was not thought necessary.

I think too that after the murders, no man wanted to be with her

I think of Lizzie as a case of arrested developement: and that she might get "crushes" on women, but that she had not an emotional depth of sustaining an adult relationship. If she killed a man to get out from under his thumb, why would she marry a man and then by law, he owned everything and her?

Bridget is another matter. She is asked if she had a boyfriend! One item of rumor was that she had been affianced, but he died.

yeah and what of this possible attachment to Uncle John? Is that a cover up...or was he also involved in the infatuation? I rermember reading something about how Mr Morse and Andrew talked about the will the night before the murders in a significant way...dont remember if it implied arguing or what...and when the suggestion was made that Lizzie might have had a crush on him, I wondered if he shared her feelings. The presumption seems to be no, but do we really know?

when I said cover up, I meant a cover up for her lesbian tendencies.

wintressanna @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:47 pm wrote:yeah and what of this possible attachment to Uncle John? Is that a cover up...or was he also involved in the infatuation? I rermember reading something about how Mr Morse and Andrew talked about the will the night before the murders in a significant way...dont remember if it implied arguing or what...and when the suggestion was made that Lizzie might have had a crush on him, I wondered if he shared her feelings. The presumption seems to be no, but do we really know?

We don't have info on what Morse and Andrew talked about Wednesday night. In fact, some expert supposedly said that if he knew that he'd have solved this case.
The newspapers said they mentioned Gould's yacht for sale at a couple of hundred thousand dollar price tag and Andrew asked Morse what would he (Andrew) do with it?

I only mention this because you posted the same elsewhere hereabouts..

Kat @ Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:24 pm wrote:I think of Lizzie as a case of arrested developement: and that she might get "crushes" on women, but that she had not an emotional depth of sustaining an adult relationship. If she killed a man to get out from under his thumb, why would she marry a man and then by law, he owned everything and her?

That makes a lot of sense to me Kat. Especially the part about not marrying a man that would have control of everything. I do not think Miss Lizzie was the kind to let anyone control her. If she was a lesbian, she may have felt more comfortable with women because another woman would be on the same rung of the ladder as she was herself. They would be equals. In a regular relationship, the man wore the pants and made all the decisions. Things would work differently with a woman. They could also never marry, so Lizzie's money would stay Lizzie's money. I think Lizzie may have been lacking the needed emotional development when it came to dealing with full time adult relationships. They were always refered to as "the girls." I'm going to be 32 years old this year, I wish someone would refer to me as "that girl." "That woman" is what I always hear . So I agree she may have been a little emotionally under developed. That makes a great deal of sense to me.

After reading the Hiram thread, I wondered if he was so bitter toward Lizzie because he wasn't the "chosen" Uncle. . .




the plot sickens. . .

Chris!

Lizzie had a lot to offer a man..... Especially after the trial when she had so very much money.

Scott P. gets marriage proposals in jail and Lizzie didn't get one male caller?

Could she have firmly discouraged them?

Since I've posted the news item about Uncle John and Lizzie, I have been wondering if anyone believes Uncle John conspired with Lizzie to commit the murders. I'll post his reply to that question.

New York Times August 10,1892: (I know I use alot of quotes from this paper. But since I have been making copies of the news items from the Times about the murder at my local library, I have of course been reading a great deal of The New York Times circa 1892-93 lately.)

"While the servant was in the court-room locked up with the authorities, J. V. Morse was walking through Main Street and down to the banks, closely followed by an officer. When shown the statement of G.E. Fish of Hartford, to the effect that he believed that Lizzie Borden and Morse concocted the murder of the old couple, and hired someone to do it, Morse said: " You know as well as I do what grounds there are for such and absurd charge as that. It is entirely unreasonable. That is all I will say."

Is it entirely unreasonable if there was something improper going on between he and Lizzie at the time?

Well, if Morse conspired with Lizzie to murder the Bordens, I don't see what he got out of it. He didn't *get the girl*, and he didn't get the farm or house, and he didn't get rich and in fact he dissed the girls in his will.
When there was suit brought by others to split his money differently, the result was that Emma & Lizzie became eligible for a bit over $100, and Emma refused hers.

I don't recall if it was a newspaper story, but, wasn't there something about a man who had known Lizzie in the past and wrote to her in jail. Whether it was to come visit her or just to have her write him back, I don't recall. Andrew Jennings sent a reply back to this guy basically telling him he was in bad taste and to cease and desist. Anyone recall the info on that?

I think she might have done some experimenting with her sexuality after the trail and she didn't have to worry about her father. But that would have been a reason for murder if her father and stepmother found out

Susan -- I think you're remembering this report in the Witness Statements. The police looked into this matter after a Daily news reporter told them Curtis I. Piece was an old lover of Lizzie's :

" ... Mr. Piece first met Lizzie Borden at the house of Mr. Tripp at Westport,
about ten years ago. At that time Piece was a sort of itinerant preacher, and was doing a little in that line in Westport at that time. While he was on speaking terms with her, yet there was not anything to indicate that Lizzie cared for him. I was told by Mrs. Tripp that Lizzie could hardly tolerate him. Mr. Piece told me he first met Lizzie at the home of the Tripp’s about ten years ago. Was not intimately acquainted with her; he had not met her in over four years, and had not written to her in two years before the murder. He was not her lover, and never was. He never was to her house in his life, and did not know her people, either father, mother or Emma, and had never spoken or written to any of them. He did write to Lizzie since she was sent to Taunton Jail; and the letter was answered by Mr. Jennings. He never wrote to any member of Lizzie’s family, expressing regard for Lizzie, or in any other way.

The copy of the letter sent by Mr. Piece to Lizzie. “Westport Sep. 20, 1892. To Miss Lizzie, with friendly greetings. I am very anxious to meet you, and as I cannot presume upon your presence without your permission, will you be so kind as to appoint a day for me to visit you as soon as convenient. I can come any day or hour. Please not deny this one request, believe me you have my deepest sympathy and constant prayer.
I am sincerely yours. Curtis I. Piece. Westport Box 34.

Copy of letter sent by Andrew J. Jennings to Curtis I. Piece. Fall River, Mass.
September 24, 1892. Mr. Curtis I. Piece. P. O. Box 34, Westport Mass. Dear Sir;
Your letter to Sheriff Wright and to Miss Lizzie A. Borden have been handed to me by the latter. For your sympathy, as for that of everybody else in her suffering, she is.grateful but she is at a loss to understand why you should presume upon her unfortunate position to open correspondence with her, or write to Sheriff Wright asking for an interview. She does not [wish] to see you, nor to receive letters from you. She has not, tis true, a father to appeal to, or family to compel you to cease your attempts to force yourself upon her notice; but there are others who can and will supply his place. She has told me of your previous conduct, and I am surprised that any man should attempt to renew it under present circumstances.
Yours truly, Andrew J. Jennings.’" (W.S. p. 33)

Thanks so much, Diana, thats the one! I wonder what his deal was that he decided he needed to visit her in jail? Was an honest, man of the cloth concern for Lizzie that he felt he may be of some help to her? A thrill seeker? Fortune hunter? What an odd circumstance.

Yes -- it is odd.

Jennings' phrase "She has told me of your previous conduct, and I am surprised that any man should attempt to renew it under present circumstances" and Mrs. Tripp's comment that Lizzie could hardly tolerate the man makes one wonder if Piece may have previously forced his attentions on Lizzie and she turned him down. Maybe he thought her vulnerable condition might make her more receptive to his charm.

If so, he underestimated our Lizzie.

Yes the whole tenor of his letter seems to be a gentleman caller talking to a stereotype of the time and not to a person he had any real intimacy or acquaintance with. The situation seems clear that he had intentions that were spurned...but it does make one wonder if the obvious is so obvious. What if this guy was somehow associated with the crime for which he expected payment or the like and he was betrayed by Lizzie? Again, what we have here is Lizzie directing what to do with someone on a basis of a story that Lizzie told. Could be true, could be false. A big question here, and with the case, remains....is Lizzie innocent and niave or is she a grandmanipulator and guilty? Or another alternative...is Lizzie a grand manipulator and still innocent? Stranger things have happened.

I think maybe people might have thought that she was gay because she never married. Or there was very little written about her male callers.

There was an announcement in the paper that Lizbeth was afianced to a Man, Gardner(?), who I believe was a school teacher.

wow any more info Kat? Id love to see/hear it.

didn't the Gardners rent the farm house?

Kat @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:57 pm wrote:There was an announcement in the paper that Lizbeth was afianced to a Man, Gardner(?), who I believe was a school teacher.

Which paper did this announcement appear in, and what is the date? I would be interested in seeing the announcement.

It seems the item appeared in the Fall River Daily Globe, December 10, 1896 and in the Fall River News the next day. (Rebello, 304) And in Yesterday in Old Fall River Hoffman says it also appeared in the Boston Globe on December 10, 1896. (Hoffman, 135)

Edward Radin’s Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story has this:
"There are some indications that romance may have entered Lizzie Borden's life about three years after her trial, when she was a woman of thirty-six. The Fall River News, which carefully checked its stories before using them, published a brief item that Lizzie's friends were expecting her to announce her engagement to a Swansea schoolteacher. It hinted that the couple had known each other since childhood; he had lived on a farm near where Lizzie had spent her summers. The story was picked up by the wire services and out-of-town reporters soon swarmed into Fall River and Swansea. The schoolteacher went into hiding. Lizzie, of course, maintained her aloofness from the press. If anything ever convinced Lizzie that the blight of the trial had made her public property, it probably was this incident. No engagement was ever announced and Lizzie never married.”
(Radin pp. 237-8)

I wonder if this was a real romance or just a rumor. Who would these "friends" be who expected them to make such an announcement?

If he really loved her, then why didn't he marry her?

Iam sure back then reputation was everything.Maybe he wasn't as strong as Lizzie.

Well I am suspicious when it mentions that he went into hiding...doesnt sound like someone who is about to get married and thereby publicly acknowledge his intentions, does it, no matter how difficult it is to face the press. He would have to eventually anyway. It almost makes you wonder if something blooming was cut short by the press, but thats a somewhat melodramatic perspective.

Thank you Diana!

Here is The Chicago Tribune's pick-up of the article:
Please click on pic

Thanks for posting that, Kat. Interesting, they got the murder year wrong in the article. Now I'm curious all over again as to how this became reported and that a paper printed it?

wintressanna @ Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:58 am wrote:Well I am suspicious when it mentions that he went into hiding...doesnt sound like someone who is about to get married and thereby publicly acknowledge his intentions, does it, no matter how difficult it is to face the press. He would have to eventually anyway. It almost makes you wonder if something blooming was cut short by the press, but thats a somewhat melodramatic perspective.

It makes me wonder if there was ever anything blooming in the first place.
Could it have been a rumor that got accidentally picked up and blown out of proportion by the press?

I think that maybe most men were a bit scared of her. But I never knew she was inegaged. Thats something!

Wow the article states that the wedding will take place before Christmas, and be followed by a European tour. Pretty drawn out for a rumor.

Wander why they never went through with the marriage

Emma ended up living with Preston Gardner in The Minden Apartments in Providence. I'm not sure if they lived together, or if they each had an apartment there; 1920+

(When you guys get your "Rebello" see page 311+)

Posted at another thread first:
viewtopic.php?p=12010#12010

All This From SPIERING:

"But the press would not leave her alone. On December 10, 1896, a brief article which appeared in the Boston Globe was picked up by newspapers throughout the country:"

'IS LIZZIE BORDEN TO MARRY?

Fall River, Mass., Dec. 10--Friends of Lizzie Andrew Borden, who was once accused of the murder of her father and stepmother and whose trial was one of the most famous the country has known, are congratulating her upon the approach of her marriage. The husband-to-be is one Mr. Gardner, a school teacher of the village of Swansea, which lies a few miles across the bay to the west of the city. He has been a friend of Miss Borden since childhood days, which they spent upon adjoining farms. The engagement has been rumored about for weeks, but it lacked confirmation until a few days ago, when it was learned that Miss Borden has given to a well-known dressmaker an order for a trousseau. Mr. Gardner has had erected in South Somerset a fine new house. It is said that the wedding will probably take place about Christmas.'

The residents of the farm adjacent to the one which Andrew Borden had owned in Swansea were named Gardner. And the eldest son was a school teacher. But the story of Lizzie's romance and impending marriage had been fabricated.

Soon after the article appeared, reporters from out-of-town newspapers flooded Fall River.

Gardner went into hiding and Lizzie withdrew behind the oak doors of Maplecroft, where she was constantly harassed. The incident infuriated and disturbed her. Two days later she wrote to Mrs. Cummings, the dressmaker Emma had written to earlier. The letter's significance was that it revealed the strain Lizzie was under.

It was from Mrs. Cummings, whose shop on Elm Street stood beside Andrew Borden's Union Savings Bank, that Lizzie supposedly had ordered her wedding gown.

'My dear Friend
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.
Yours sincerely
L. A. Borden
Dec. 12, 1896' "

Emma boarded with her cousin Preston Gardner, his wife Mary, and two servants at 211 Hope Street in Providence for a time -- either from 1905 - 1913 or from 1909 - 1913 according to the Providence City directories. (Rebello, 311+)

After that Emma moved to Reverend Buck's home for a few years and then to the Minden Apartments in 1919. And as Kat's posting showed -- Preston was also living there in 1920. And presumably so was Preston's wife, Mary, because she is included in Emma's will which was dated November, 1920. So that pretty much takes Preston out of the running for Lizzie's hand (or Emma's for that matter.)

The Knowlton Glossary says Lizzie’s cousin, Orrin Gardner, was a teacher in Tiverton, Swansea, and Fall River and that he was summoned as a witness but never called to testify. When Emma died in 1927, her funeral was reportedly held at Orrin's home in Touisset, MA. (Rebello, 341-2)

Orrin was born in 1867 (Knowlton Glossary) and Preston around 1863. ( Providence census 1910 -- in Rebello, 316).

Why would rumors fly about Lizzie and her cousin? Or was there another Swansea teacher named Gardner?

Maybe. There are way too many Gardners in the mix for me. Andrew was always buying land in Swansea from people named Gardner: e.g. Hannah Gardner, Almira Gardner, Charles W. Gardner, Nathan B. Gardner... Then after his death Lizzie and Emma sold land in Swansea to Leander E. Gardner and deeded land to Preserved Gardner ....

However I'm inclined to believe that Lizzie’s rumored engagement to a Mr. Gardner was just that – a rumor.