Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Harry said something awhile back in one of the threads that got me to thinking. It was an excerpt from Bridgets trial testimony. This may have been discussed before, if so I apologize.

Bridget Sullivan's trial testimony page 206:

Q. After you had got your wood and coal and started your fire,what is the next thing that you did?
A. I unlocked my door and took in the milk and put a pan out for the ice man and a pitcher with some water in it.

Q. When you came to the door to get the milk how did you find the locks compared with the condition you left them in the preceding night?
A.Just the same as I left them.

Q.After you had unlocked the door, taken in your milk and put out your pan for the ice, how did you leave the back door then?
A.I hooked the screen door.


The ice man generally did not leave the ice outside in a pan.He carried the ice in large blocks on his wagon, and chiseled smaller blocks off of this according to how much the customer required that day. From all that I have read each person had what was called an Ice card. The ice card was put in the window to indicate how many pounds of ice were required by the customer. These cards indicated to him as he drove by not only that you wanted ice that day, but how much you wanted before he entered your home carrying the blocks of ice. He would then chisel it off and weigh it accordingly. He would carry it into the house himself with a pair of ice tongs and place the block of ice into the ice box. So why did she say she had put out a pan for the ice man? And if ice cards were used it can be assumed that they delivered during the daylight hours or else how could they see them in the windows? So, where was the mention of the ice man's delivery that day, and what happened to the pan? Small questions that seem maybe insignificant, but leave me wondering none -the -less.If the ice man was due to make a delivery that day, and they generally came INTO the house to deliver the ice, where is the mention of it? Here is a picture of an ice card taken from the top site,and the second picture comes from the second site listed.

http://mypage.siu.edu/hawkes/icecard.html

http://shorock.com/nora/ellen/homedel.htm
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City dwellers had ice delivered to them by horse and wagon. The iceman had to lift from 25- to 100-pound blocks, according to the order, which was placed by the consumer putting a numbered card in the window that corresponded with the number of pounds of ice they wanted (25,50,75,100). The ice was weighed on a spring scale on the truck, but an experienced delivery man could estimate the weight. The ice was carried to a kitchen using ice tongs, and chipped with chisels to fit the compartment of the ice box.

Delivery men were known for their brawn, as they hauled heavy blocks of ice all day long, and often up flights of stairs. They often had access to the kitchen when no one was home, and they simply placed the ice appropriately. Some city apartments used a suspended box (a small version of the ice box) outside the kitchen window, its contents available to the cook through the raised window; others kept an ice chest outdoors on the porch, or a handsome oak refrigerator in the kitchen. Ice wagons were the delight of children playing in summer’s heat; it was a good day when the iceman dropped his ice tongs and used his ice pick to chop a small piece of ice for someone to suck on.

http://frozen61.tripod.com/id5.html
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Residential ice boxes, many home-made, were of oak, pine, or ash wood lined with zinc, slate, porcelain, galvanized metal or wood. The insulator between the walls was charcoal, cork, flax straw or mineral wool. Still, the ice lasted only one day. Chicago manufacturers in the 1800s included Brunswick-Balke-Collender Company and E.H. Stafford Brothers. Those who could not afford manufactured boxes made their own or still used their wells and cellars. The ice block in the boxes usually only lasted one or two days, but helped the householders maintain a healthier diet that included dairy products and fresh meat.

http://www.museum.state.il.us/RiverWeb/ ... l_ice.html
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These are sites that deal with how ice was delivered.

http://www.iceboxmemories.com/site/about.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~bereahistori ... ticle.html

http://shorock.com/nora/ellen/homedel.htm

Thank you for all the info and the pictures are cool!

In the Preliminary Hearing, Bridget is asked a bit more thoroughly about the ice man. It starts on page 3. Of course, Bridget is not much help in her answers, but here they are anyway:

Q. How was the screen door kept at that time?
A. About quarter of seven I opened it for the ice man to come in.

Q. When you opened it, did you unhook it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. After the ice man came in, did you hook it again?
A. I cant say, I dont remember.

Q. Do you know how that was usually kept, that screen door, hooked or not?
A. It was hooked most of the time. I kept it hooked as far as I could know about it.

Q. Did anybodyelse come in at the back door, that you know of, that morning, besides the ice man, and your going out to get the milk, and coming in?
A. I do not remember.

Q. You mean you do not remember of anybodyelse, or whether there was

Page 4

anybodyelse?
A. No Sir.

Q. Where was your milk can?
A. Right on the back steps.

Q. Do I understand you to say whether you do not remember of anybodyelse coming in?
A. Not out of the house. I supposed the others were in the house. I cannot remember when they went or came.

Q. You saw Mr. Morse go out?
A. No Sir. Mr. Borden went out after he got down stairs.

Q. Before Mr. Borden went out, do you recollect seeing anybodyelse go out or in, besides the ice man, and when you went out yourself?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you go out of doors that morning again before Mr. Borden went out?
A. No Sir.

Q. You went out after the milk can on the steps?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you go through the screen door again after that?
A. No Sir.
.......
pg. 5
Q. You saw Mrs. Borden when she came down the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What were you doing when she came down?
A. I was getting breakfast.

Q. Was that before or after the ice man came?
A. Before.
.....
pg. 60
Q. This back entry way you speak of that comes in at the north door, and goes into the kitchen, was a pretty large entry way? Where did you keep the ice chest?
A. A closet that goes from the entry, in, and the ice chest sets in there.

Q. It was in a closet that opens off the entry. You do not have to bring the ice into the kitchen?
A. No Sir.

Q. You come into the entry, and put the ice in the chest?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 61

Q. Was there anything else that opened off that entry way but that closet or room where the ice chest was?
A. No.

Of course, the doorway to the stairs to the second floor was off that entry as well, which Bridget does agree when asked again.
The guy came in.
Harry described to me recently how his family's ice man carried the ce. I think he said it was carried on the shoulder on a piece of burlap.

Thanks for the infomation. I didn't know they put the cards in the window for how much ice they needed. I like the picture too. That is so cool.

I would imagine it is very COOL...about 32' F / 0' C. I would imagine that the ice man was a busy man...especially in August.


Tracy...

Ooh - i'm impressed Allen - serious.
Think about this - what if the pitcher of water had nothing to do with the iceman?

Check this out john.

viewtopic.php?t=776


Tracy...

Ya Theebmonique you said it right away that maybe the pitcher of water had nothing to do with the ice man. I remember that page. Did you find the other one about the dress? I'll try to find it if you can't.
Like your quotes.

Yes, I did find it and posted the link in the thread where you asked about it.


Tracy...