Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Alice was the only child of Frederick W. and Judith (Manly) Russell.

According to Mr Rebello, Alice and her mother lived in the Kelly house after the death of Mr Russell. (1878, When Alice would have been 26. Emma was 27 and Lizzie 18)

In 1891, at 39, Alice moves, apparently alone to a house on Borden Street. The same year her mother moved to Maple Street and continued to work as a nurse. Mrs Russell would have been 58.

Why did they not continue to live together? They were all the other seemed to have. Did Judith take a position as a live in nurse with a family on Spring Street?

In 1896 they lived together again in a house at 232 3rd street. (This same year she began working as an assistant to the 4th and 5th grade sewing teacher. 11 years later, in 1907 she was promoted to sewing supervisor which she did until she retired in 1914 at the age of 62.)

In the midst of this she and her mother again moved to a 2 family house on Hillside Street. (1909)

Her mother died in 1913 and Alice lived in the house on Hillside Street until she went to the home for the aged in what appears to be 1929 or 1930. She lived there 11 years before dying in 1941 at 89 years old.

As an only child and not married as well, it does appear Alice and her mother depended on one another. They lived together all their lives but for the 5 years Alice lived in the Borden Street house....

I am curious as to why...

(dates/info Rebello p63)

This is a very interesting question you've raised Audrey. Well thought out as well. I have a few things I wanted to research, and you've just added one to my list.

Kat implied Alice Russell (sp?) was kinda flakey. I read up on her and seems so.

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john @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:04 am wrote:Kat implied Alice Russell (sp?) was kinda flakey. I read up on her and seems so.

No Kat did not.
Kat likes Alice Russell. Alice was a hard-working lady and a loyal friend to those Borden girls.

Thanks, Audrey for the info!

I believe Alice is featured in an edition of the LBQ and also in the FRHS Quarterly Report.

One of the best items I've ever read on Alice Russell is in the book PROCEEDINGS, "They Would Like To Have Been Cultured Girls: An Analysis Of The Testimony Of Alice Russell During The Prosecution Of Lizzie Borden", by Robert T. Johnson, Jr., pg. 225.

Was Alice very close to Emma and Lizzie? And she was, was she there thru the trial of lizzie?

I still wonder why she and her mother spent those 5 years living apart... It is curious to me. I believe I read somewhere on the forum that she had to move from the Kelly house to the Borden Street house for economical reasons.

Yes, I am wandering to why mother and daughter lived apart for 5 years. Maybe because of finanical reasons, or maybe she found another place she liked better?

Kat,
You responded to me that Alice Russell's testimony or statements might not be reliable, and that is a direct subjective synonym for the definition of the term "flakey."
I'm not sure I could even go through all of your posts; I know I don't want go through mine.
But after you made that comment, I read up some on Alice Russell, and she sounded pretty flakey.
Good friend though I'm sure, and certainly a wonderfull woman.

I doubt we are talking about the same person.
Bridget is the only one I might not find reliable in testimony (other than Lizzie & Morse).
You'll have to "put up or fold."

Amen Kat.


Tracy...

OK I'll find it.
But look at what you just said and what we're dealing with. You just said that 66% of the people still alive in the house that were there before the murders might be unreliable testimony.

Oops, you include Bridget as possibly unreliable, so 100%

I'll throw in Dr. Bowen and make it 125%.
Please don't bother looking.
The only thing I might say about Alice is that she probably did not know what she was seeing when she saw it, or really heard what was being said- but I never said that until now. I think she was in shock, and shocked at what had happened, and that probably affected her perceptions.

The only comment I can think of recently was that she did not know murder had been done until Morse got there. She knew the folks had been sick and she says she thought it was more of that.

What did you go and read on Alice, anyway?

Alice struggled with the decision to tell about the burning of the dress. She must have been in a terrible position. If we were to hear of a woman today who came forward with info like Alice did in a major murder trial - We would applaud her as couragous and she would be on Oprah... She would write a book and make money on her association with the case. Alice did what she did with taste. Bravo Alice.

Coming forward with info in a current murder trial would include some fame then. Not the same as now, but that would be a factor, especially this case.

as to why her mother and she lived apart...when studying genealogy you find out that people do these things for various reasons, sometimes financially based but usually so individual to the person, the family, the place, the time, that it is really unlikely to be definite about a reason why. But it is also not terribly uncommon.

Yes, after the man dies the women have to take what measures they have to to support themselves. If it was convenient for them to live together they would, obviously, but when they both needed other jobs, say, it was not. Then it might later become convenient again.

Kat @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:12 am wrote:Yes, after the man dies the women have to take what measures they have to to support themselves. If it was convenient for them to live together they would, obviously, but when they both needed other jobs, say, it was not. Then it might later become convenient again.

Thats the explaination that rings true in my opinion also. Maybe the move to Borden street brought her closer to a job she held at the time, and maybe it was more practical for her mother to move to Maple Street because it was closer to her job as well. Or the rent was cheaper since she would be paying it on her own? I think Alice had alot of integrity. She had to, Lizzie and Emma were two of her closest friends, and she still chose to tell about the dress burning. I wonder why Alice never married? Was it because she felt it her duty to take care of her mother?

wintressanna @ Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:27 pm wrote:as to why her mother and she lived apart...when studying genealogy you find out that people do these things for various reasons, sometimes financially based but usually so individual to the person, the family, the place, the time, that it is really unlikely to be definite about a reason why. But it is also not terribly uncommon.

I suspect the resident nurse explanation may be correct, although it may not be provable. It certainly fits with the times: I recently read a biography of the poet Edna St. Vincent Millay (born 1892). and her divorced mother took various resident nursing posts, leaving the teenage Edna to run the household and raise her younger sisters. Alice Russell wasn't even a teenager, although her time apart from her mother was 10 years earlier.

Lynn

was alice a friend of lizzie and did they keep in touch with her after the trail?

...has there ever been any research done regarding the possibility that Alice Russell was a lesbian? To take that a step further, has there been any research done regarding Alice and Lizzie and a possible lesbian relationship? I am asking this in all seriousness, not merely to titilate. I can't put my finger on the reference or reasoning, but I have a vague remembrance of this being theorized by someone at some time? (of course, in this case, what HASN'T been theorized, eh?) However, this theory might explain quite a bit, if solid.

Any references or info/incite you all can provide would be great. Thanks.

I've never heard that suggested about Alice in any book, newspaper, source document or on any message board I was a part of, unless it was a posting from before 2000.
If there is no proof about Lizzie, who we know a lot about, I don't see how it could be known about Alice?

Kat @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:18 pm wrote:I've never heard that suggested about Alice in any book, newspaper, source document or on any message board I was a part of, unless it was a posting from before 2000.
If there is no proof about Lizzie, who we know a lot about, I don't see how it could be known about Alice?

Thanks kat, I was just wandering who she was. It seems that eveything that I have heard and read, it has never mentioned alice other than that one time.

Audrey @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:25 am wrote:Alice was the only child of Frederick W. and Judith (Manly) Russell.

According to Mr Rebello, Alice and her mother lived in the Kelly house after the death of Mr Russell. (1878, When Alice would have been 26. Emma was 27 and Lizzie 18)

In 1891, at 39, Alice moves, apparently alone to a house on Borden Street. The same year her mother moved to Maple Street and continued to work as a nurse. Mrs Russell would have been 58.

Why did they not continue to live together? They were all the other seemed to have. Did Judith take a position as a live in nurse with a family on Spring Street?

In 1896 they lived together again in a house at 232 3rd street. (This same year she began working as an assistant to the 4th and 5th grade sewing teacher. 11 years later, in 1907 she was promoted to sewing supervisor which she did until she retired in 1914 at the age of 62.)

In the midst of this she and her mother again moved to a 2 family house on Hillside Street. (1909)

Her mother died in 1913 and Alice lived in the house on Hillside Street until she went to the home for the aged in what appears to be 1929 or 1930. She lived there 11 years before dying in 1941 at 89 years old.

As an only child and not married as well, it does appear Alice and her mother depended on one another. They lived together all their lives but for the 5 years Alice lived in the Borden Street house....

I am curious as to why...

(dates/info Rebello p63)

Thanks Audrey. I didn't know all this. Where did you get all the information? I don't ever remember reading anything about Alice.

Why does this lesbian stuff keep surfacing, and what would it have to do with anything?
Kat has a point about the baby that could be a really issue. Let's ("let us" for you English examiners) see.

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Audrey gave the source as:
"(dates/info Rebello p63)."

That's Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Al-Zach Press, Fall River, MA. 1999. page 63.

There is a topc here somewhere recently where the folks living at the Churchill/Buffinton house are discussed, if anyone is looking for a baby.

john @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:56 am wrote:Why does this lesbian stuff keep surfacing, and what would it have to do with anything?
Kat has a point about the baby that could be a really issue. Let's ("let us" for you English examiners) see.

regarding the "lesbian stuff"...maybe it keeps coming up because a number of people have found it to be a legitimate angle to use through which to look at this case. I'm not saying that I personally believe there's definitely a connection, but I think it's worth some time and thought.

and what would it have to do with anything? If true, it could have EVERYTHING to do with this case. Last I checked, most murders occur because of love/sex, money, and/or power. Certainly it's been proposed that perhaps A&A were killed because they were an obsticle to Lizzie's happiness, either terms of her relationships with others and/or for money and control of her life. in my opinion, it's a plausible explanation and a worthwhile subject for further research, thus I brought it up.