Lizzie Borden Society Forum

While you're down there, see if you can find any hatchets...

That reminds me of one of several scenes from O Brother, Where Art Thou?

The crappy tunneler's curse.


Tracy...

Funny, but, ewwwww. Thanks for the laugh, Harry.

That's gotta stink

That reminds me....we found the outhouse that was in the barn. Ed told the crew where to dig and they uncovered the barns foundation. I spent 4 hours digging in the, um...former sh!t pile. It wasnt hard to find and it's not as gross as it sounds. If anyone does gardening....think compost pile....about 3ft wide 5ft long and 2ft deep. Sorry, no hatchet. But I did find many other things! Lots of broken dishes, the cover to a chamber pot, a horse shoe, a cooking pot, a spoon, two Bromo-seltzer bottles (for headaches), one colchi-sal bottle (for gout...didn't Abby have gout?) and other various bottles. I'll take some pictures of the finds once I clean them up a bit and put the pictures on the website.

Great finds Lee-ann ! Is there a way to 'test' these items to see if any of them may have actually belonged to the Bordens ?


Tracy...

That's cool, Lee-ann!
YAY! You did it! Just what everyone was asking for!

I don't think I ever heard that Abby had gout.
Other than that, I've not heard of women tending to get gout- mainly men.

Very cool, Lee-Ann. But I'm thinking...a horseshoe? A spoon? Makes you wonder why...

Lee-ann @ Fri May 20, 2005 10:11 pm wrote: two Bromo-seltzer bottles (for headaches)

This reminded me of bromo caffeine for some odd reason. Those really are great finds. They do sound like at least some of them had to belong, and be used, by the Bordens. That's just my opinion though. I think those kinds of things are fascinating. I can't wait to see the pictures.

I wonder if the chamber pot cover was a case of, "Whoops! ... Oh no!!!"

Bromo-seltzer! Introduced in 1891!

Are going to put these items on display ?

I wonder if the bromo bottles were ones that the Borden may have used that morning for their gastric woes ??


Tracy...

Yes, I will put the things we found in a display case......I will have to investigate Abby and her possible gout further. Women get it as easily as men Kat. I saw alot of it working for GNC. People who are extremely overweight are most prone and those who rely on the Atkins diet for too long...diets rich in fats and animal (red) meats.

Well, actually, as to nowadays, I don't really know- but as I say I've not heard too many women getting gout. My opinion as to the difference in men and women getting it is based on the Victorian Days. We were discussing what was brought up out of the ground and what Abby may have suffered from.
But here is a site on gout.
I do know what it is.
Is it possible you saw more women with it because they came into the GNC? That wouldn't be quite a statistical cross-section, would it?

http://www.podiatrychannel.com/gout/

"Overview

Gout is a systemic disease (i.e., condition that occurs throughout the body) caused by the buildup of uric acid in the joints. An elevated blood level of uric acid (called hyperuricemia) occurs when the liver produces more uric acid than the body can excrete in the urine, or when a diet high in rich foods (e.g., red meat, cream sauces, red wine) produces more uric acid than the kidneys can filter from the blood.

Over time, uric acid in the blood crystallizes and settles in the joint spaces, causing swelling, inflammation, stiffness, and pain. Gout usually affects the first metatarsal phalangeal joint of the big toe (hallux) or the ankle joints.

Incidence and Prevalence
According to the National Institutes of Health (NIH), gout affects approximately 2.1 million people in the United States and is more common in men between the ages of 40 and 50. In women, incidence increases after menopause. The condition is rare in children and young adults."


--When I checked this site, every questioner was a man>

http://www.druginfonet.com/index.php?pa ... aqgout.htm

I suppose in women it could be under-reported, but women are usually much better at seeing a doctor..

Well I would guess the statistics on how many women get gout would be helpful in trying to decide whether or not Abby had it. The fact that women can get it at all is what I would think would be the most important factor. Men are also more likely to go bald, but I have an aunt who is steadily losing all of her hair. My late uncle had gout so I know what it is as well. I became very interested in this topic, so I looked up some statistics and general risk factors also. I found out that once women reach a certain age, they are just as likely to get it as men. In the elderly, namely after age 60, it occurs equally in men and women.


Women. Before menopause, women have a significantly lower risk for gout than men, possibly because of the actions of estrogen. This female hormone appears to facilitate uric acid excretion by the kidneys. (Only about 15% of female gout cases occur before menopause.) After menopause the risk increases in women so that after age 60 the incidence is equal in men and women, and after 80, gout occurs actually more often in women.

http://www.morehead.org/wellconnected/000093.htm


I would say Abby was way past menopause. This doesn't in any way indicate she did have it. But it intrigues me with the possibility.

(edit one of my links did not carry over into the post for some reason...but here it is http://www.hosppract.com/issues/1999/06/dmmjones.htm )

Interesting question.

I searched quite a few sources and could find no mention of gout.

The official autopsy report on Abby, states in part:

"ABDOMEN, Stomach and part of bowel had been removed. Spleen, pancreas, kidneys, liver, bladder and intestines were normal."

I don't know if the inability of the kidneys to process all the uric acid would leave any tell-tale signs or marks on the kidneys themselves.

Any doctors in the house?

In any case I'm looking forward to seeing Lee-Ann's collection.

Thanks Allen! That is pretty interesting!
In the old days, maybe because of yearly childbearing, a woman didn't live as long, to become a gout-sufferer, and maybe having children late into life also protected them longer.
After 60, huh? "In the elderly.." I think you said? Haarrummph!

Well, I have first hand experience with gout. I have had 3 "gouty attacks" as my doctor puts it. It happens in my knee, and it swells up 3 times the size with fluid, and I have to have it drained. It comes on during the middle of the night, and the pain is so severe and miserable beyond belief. It swells up so much, I am unable to bend it or walk. I had to go the emergency room twice, and to an orthopaedic surgeon to have it drained and shots of cortezone. Usually gout affects the big toe they say, but no, it can come to any major joint in your body. My doctor says it usually affects men in their 40's on. I am a 44 year old man, a bit overweight but by no means obese, and have high blood pressure . I do not eat a rich diet of red meat, organ meat, red wine, etc.....but my uric acid level is high. I think the high blood pressure problem probably contributes to the problem, and the medication you are put on for it. If you are on a diuretic for some time, it can boost the levels of uric acid I am told. My problem seems to have a pattern, it always happens around December??? Go figure that one out, my mother suspects it is something I eat around that time of year, but I can not pinpoint it.

I think Abby very well "could" have have gout, but I guess we will never know. Their diet back then was awful, and she was overweight, and possibly had high blood pressure??

Kat @ Mon May 23, 2005 5:17 pm wrote:Thanks Allen! That is pretty interesting!
In the old days, maybe because of yearly childbearing, a woman didn't live as long, to become a gout-sufferer, and maybe having children late into life also protected them longer.
After 60, huh? "In the elderly.." I think you said? Haarrummph!

I was only quoting what I read on the different sites . I am one who happens to believe you are only as old as you feel. I plan to still be kicking up my heels when I'm 60 .

Oh poor Scott! That must be awful!
You could tell your mother you got it from her if she pesters you about what you eat at the Holidays!

"Gout is caused by the buildup of uric acid in the joints. Approximately 18% of people who develop gout have a family history of the condition, according to the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. Diseases and conditions that increase the risk include diabetes, obesity, kidney disease, and sickle cell anemia.

Regularly drinking alcohol interferes with the removal of uric acid from the body and can increase the risk for developing gout. Other risk factors include the following:

* Exposure to lead in the environment
* High dietary intake of rich foods that contain purine (e.g., cream sauces, red meat, sardines, liver, scallops)
* Medications that may interfere with the body’s ability to remove uric acid (e.g., aspirin, diuretics, levodopa [used to treat Parkinson's disease])
Cyclosporine (e.g., Gengraf®), which is a medication used to suppress the body's immune system and prevent rejection after organ transplant, also increases the risk for developing gout."
http://www.podiatrychannel.com/gout/

[. I am one who happens to believe you are only as old as you feel. I plan to still be kicking up my heels when I'm 60 .[/quote]




Good for you hope you make it

Kat @ Tue May 24, 2005 3:24 am wrote:Oh poor Scott! That must be awful!
You could tell your mother you got it from her if she pesters you about what you eat at the Holidays!

"Gout is caused by the buildup of uric acid in the joints. Approximately 18% of people who develop gout have a family history of the condition, according to the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. Diseases and conditions that increase the risk include diabetes, obesity, kidney disease, and sickle cell anemia.

Regularly drinking alcohol interferes with the removal of uric acid from the body and can increase the risk for developing gout. Other risk factors include the following:

* Exposure to lead in the environment
* High dietary intake of rich foods that contain purine (e.g., cream sauces, red meat, sardines, liver, scallops)
* Medications that may interfere with the body’s ability to remove uric acid (e.g., aspirin, diuretics, levodopa [used to treat Parkinson's disease])
Cyclosporine (e.g., Gengraf®), which is a medication used to suppress the body's immune system and prevent rejection after organ transplant, also increases the risk for developing gout."
http://www.podiatrychannel.com/gout/

Thanks Kat, I wouldn't wish the pain that comes with gout on anyone! I believe I have mine under control. I no longer take diuretics, limit my diet to alot of fresh vegetables and fruit, chicken and fish, and avoid alcohol. My Grandfather has it, so I guess I can thank him! Gee, isn't getting old a pain in the butt?

I forgot to add that a natural remedy for gout is Black Cherries! They neutralize the uric acid. You can get them fresh if you can find them, or drink a concentrated drink, or find them in tablet form in health food stores.

Oh yea! I remember in the ancient days (1800's) men thought they could relieve gout by drinking cherry brandy!
(And forsaking their cigar).

It's not only terrible that you suffer from that, Scott, but also at the Holidays! I bet you're not keen on December rolling around every year!

Sorry to hear about your gout problem, Scott. It can't be fun to have to go through that. Glad to hear that you have it under control.

In the old "Bringing Up Father" comic strip in the Sunday papers, featuring Jiggs and Maggie, Jiggs would have attacks of gout in his big toe. I believe they said his was from too much corned beef and cabbage.

Oh, I will put that on my list of foods to avoid, although I love cabbage, guess I just need to steer clear of the corned beef! Thanks Harry

Almost everyone who comes thru the house and sees the crime scene photo of Abby from the rear, comments on how big her feet are. Is it possible that she is wearing shoes that are purposely too big because her toes hurt? Thats what initially got me thinking about the possibality of Abby having gout.

I thought maybe, since they seemed to have had dental care of some kind, that they also may have had shoes made to order to their specifications. Abby may have had 2 different sized feet.
We have also come to a consensus here that the angle of the photo may show some distortion.
(We think most of the photos show some sort of distortion or white-out problems, or movement off to the side).

I think some of the distortion in the photo may also come from foreshortening, objects in the photo that are closer to the camera appear as normal size and those further away appear smaller. Because when I look at this photo of Abby from the side, her feet appear almost tiny.

They look like they are turned to the side- toward her left- toward the window.

Susan, I figure a camp chair there at the east wall would block access to those lower drawers on the right, wouldn't it?

Kat @ Wed May 25, 2005 8:22 pm wrote: We have also come to a consensus here that the angle of the photo may show some distortion.

I agree with this. In the photo I have of me laying in this spot my feet appear much bigger than they are. I've actually been picked on because of this fact when I show it to certain people. I've been told I look like I have "clown feet", which is a bit of an exaggeration but then my family is known for their sense of humor . I'd post it if I thought it would be of any help.

I don't know if you have to do that, Allen. You'd be sacrificing your butt. Literally.
I've heard and read many times that people think Abby had been kneeling, and fell forward leaving her butt up in the air!
Personally, I don't see that portion of her necessarily elevated, but others do!

Kat @ Thu May 26, 2005 2:38 am wrote:They look like they are turned to the side- toward her left- toward the window.

Susan, I figure a camp chair there at the east wall would block access to those lower drawers on the right, wouldn't it?

Yes, I think a camp chair there would block those drawers, or at the very least make them only able to open a couple of inches. I wonder why the camp chair was in that spot in the first place? A makeshift nightstand? It seems to be a very odd spot for a chair, but, no one mentioned that it was out of place where it was located.

I can picture someone sitting there to take off their shoes, but that's about it. With other chairs in the room- well, let's see, I may not want to take off my shoes in a rocker, and I may not be expected by the lady of the house to sit at the sewing machine to do that-
So I picture Morse sitting there on the camp chair. Also, there's not a closet in there right? Maybe that chair also held the person's clothing?

Anyway, those drawers closed off by the chair must not have stored anything someone may want to get at easily.

I too insisted on having my picture taken as I lay in Abby's spot, and my feet look unusually large (although, truth be told, they're plenty big anyway). I think Abby's shoes look quite narrow, though long. I would think a person suffering from gout would need extra width, at least in the toe area. My late Grandmother, Eva Rich, wore a similar shoe style to Abby's until she died in 1954. I didn't think they looked at all comfortable, because they had medium-high heels and laced up the front like a man's oxfords. She even wore them around the house, summer and winter. I referred to them as "old lady shoes" and vowed never to wear them myself. Actually, they came into vogue for all ages several years ago, and I acquired a couple of pairs to wear with my costumes. However, I definitely don't wear them for every day. Today's athletic shoes and clogs are so much more comfortable! Can you imagine Abby in modern clothes -- perhaps jeans and a sweatshirt?

You have quite an imagination!
Abby Now

That is great Kat ! TOOO FUNNY !!!!!!!


Tracy...

Omigawd--Abby has the same kind of handweights I use when I walk. Fortunately, I don't think there's too much resemblance otherwise. I'm glad Abby is finally getting some exercise. She could use some toning up, even this late in the game.

Good one, Kat! Why do I hear Olivia Newton-John's Lets Get Physical?