Hatchet vs Blood Spatter

[Steve88778]

Doesn't matter if the door was opened or closed - liquid with a force will land on anything.

[Steve88778]

Doesn't matter if the door was opened or closed - liquid with a force will land on anything.

[PossumPie]

Gotcha and good point. Not sure why such a debate on this particular subject.

Too many budget TV/Movies out there ignore real science. People get their science from TV. Ships drilling to the center of the earth and setting nuclear bombs off to "restart" the earth's core moving, Ships sailing into black holes, and one of my favorites: Jeff Goldblum is able to write a computer virus, which can then be uploaded to help destroy the alien mothership in Independence Day. What a coincidence that the Aliens use Windows 10 just like us!

[Beowulf]

Gotcha and good point. Not sure why such a debate on this particular subject.

Too many budget TV/Movies out there ignore real science. People get their science from TV. Ships drilling to the center of the earth and setting nuclear bombs off to "restart" the earth's core moving, Ships sailing into black holes, and one of my favorites: Jeff Goldblum is able to write a computer virus, which can then be uploaded to help destroy the alien mothership in Independence Day. What a coincidence that the Aliens use Windows 10 just like us!

And don't forget the latest and greatest: That Brian Launderie is living in the backyard of his parents home in an underground bunker, which can be verified by his hand coming up through the soil of their flower bed.

It's depressing to think people are so stupid sometimes!

But I wonder what steps Lizzie the amateur axe or hatchet murderer took beforehand ? Surely she did not know herself she would NOT be covered in blood. Didn't she anticipate it? She knew that her father came home for lunch with a possible hour and a half wait for him after killing Mrs. Borden so it must be viewed as a planned event.

I don't know what she did at that time, (washed off the immediate blood spots and axe/hatchet?) but did she wear a covering anticipating a blood bath from the murder and how is it she did not care? I mean, when people are living pretty well as neat, tidy and clean lives how do you not feel a problem with splattering blood everywhere? Carpet, floor, walls and you yourself? I know it sounds as if I'm joking but really I'm not. I am a clean person myself, and the idea of doing things that make a mess get nixed right away in lieu of the idea of the anticipation of making a mess. It's not just cleaning up the mess but I do not like making a mess. I never can figure out how this is not a problem for a murderer. That also sounds like I'm joking but again, I'm not. I get the wacked out thinking, but being clean is really pretty much a powerful thing in people who are that way, it's a natural revulsion to get messy. Jack the ripper, ok, he may have been a slob on the streets of London, prob was, Whitchappel was a slum but Lizzie and her folks were for years living clean. How did she pick that way and why did it not bother her enough to deter the murder, or at least that style. It really shows the immediate decision to 'get this done' NOW. It boggles the mind.

[PossumPie]

Gotcha and good point. Not sure why such a debate on this particular subject.

Too many budget TV/Movies out there ignore real science. People get their science from TV. Ships drilling to the center of the earth and setting nuclear bombs off to "restart" the earth's core moving, Ships sailing into black holes, and one of my favorites: Jeff Goldblum is able to write a computer virus, which can then be uploaded to help destroy the alien mothership in Independence Day. What a coincidence that the Aliens use Windows 10 just like us!

And don't forget the latest and greatest: That Brian Launderie is living in the backyard of his parents home in an underground bunker, which can be verified by his hand coming up through the soil of their flower bed.

It's depressing to think people are so stupid sometimes!

But I wonder what steps Lizzie the amateur axe or hatchet murderer took beforehand ? Surely she did not know herself she would NOT be covered in blood. Didn't she anticipate it? She knew that her father came home for lunch with a possible hour and a half wait for him after killing Mrs. Borden so it must be viewed as a planned event.

I don't know what she did at that time, (washed off the immediate blood spots and axe/hatchet?) but did she wear a covering anticipating a blood bath from the murder and how is it she did not care? I mean, when people are living pretty well as neat, tidy and clean lives how do you not feel a problem with splattering blood everywhere? Carpet, floor, walls and you yourself? I know it sounds as if I'm joking but really I'm not. I am a clean person myself, and the idea of doing things that make a mess get nixed right away in lieu of the idea of the anticipation of making a mess. It's not just cleaning up the mess but I do not like making a mess. I never can figure out how this is not a problem for a murderer. That also sounds like I'm joking but again, I'm not. I get the wacked out thinking, but being clean is really pretty much a powerful thing in people who are that way, it's a natural revulsion to get messy. Jack the ripper, ok, he may have been a slob on the streets of London, prob was, Whitchappel was a slum but Lizzie and her folks were for years living clean. How did she pick that way and why did it not bother her enough to deter the murder, or at least that style. It really shows the immediate decision to 'get this done' NOW. It boggles the mind.

This is an EXCELLENT observation. She had no idea about the blood. I don't buy the "naked Lizzie" idea, but I figure she wore an old dress knowing she could remove it and clean arms and hands and put it back on for Father. When she saw Father's coat, an inspiration came that she could put it on and wad it up under his head when done. By this time she was more confident as Abbey didn't soil her much at all.

One possibility: In the 1800s people were more intimately acquainted with slaughter. Today we buy our meat neatly packed and clean, but back then they saw hogs, chickens, cows slaughtered. My grandmother cut the heads off of chickens for Sunday dinner. My mother talks of childhood 1949 watching them butcher hogs in the back yard. It was a crueler, less antiseptic time. I help my brother-in-law gut and clean the deer he kills. I'm not a "sportsman" who enjoys killing, but I will help clean and package deer for his family's and my family's freezers. We eat it and are grateful for the meat. Just my two cents worth though...

[Reasonwhy]

Welcome back, Beowulf!

I remember someone posting about there not having been any collateral damage to the house—nothing knocked off the dresser top, no chairs overturned, etc. The writer interpreted that as suggesting the guilt of someone who didn’t want to mess up the home. But, I think you are speaking more to repugnance at the gore/savagery of a hatcheting?

If done by someone who lived in the house, that person has
contaminated, ruined her own house by the act? And maybe “soiled” herself in that same way? (I’m channeling Lady Macbeth.) So, self-destructive as well as outwardly destructive?

[Reasonwhy]

For those interested, here is the whole quote from Act Five, Scene 1 of Shakespeare’s Macbeth:

Enter a Doctor of Physic and a Waiting-Gentlewoman.

DOCTOR I have two nights watched with you but can
perceive no truth in your report. When was it she
last walked?
GENTLEWOMAN Since his Majesty went into the field, I
have seen her rise from her bed, throw her nightgown
upon her, unlock her closet, take forth paper,
fold it, write upon ’t, read it, afterwards seal it, and
again return to bed; yet all this while in a most fast
sleep.
DOCTOR A great perturbation in nature, to receive at
once the benefit of sleep and do the effects of
watching. In this slumb’ry agitation, besides her
walking and other actual performances, what at any
time have you heard her say?
GENTLEWOMAN That, sir, which I will not report after
her.
DOCTOR You may to me, and ’tis most meet you
should.
GENTLEWOMAN Neither to you nor anyone, having no
witness to confirm my speech.

Enter Lady Macbeth with a taper.

Lo you, here she comes. This is her very guise and,
upon my life, fast asleep. Observe her; stand close.
DOCTOR How came she by that light?
GENTLEWOMAN Why, it stood by her. She has light by
her continually. ’Tis her command.
DOCTOR You see her eyes are open.
GENTLEWOMAN Ay, but their sense are shut.
DOCTOR What is it she does now? Look how she rubs
her hands.
GENTLEWOMAN It is an accustomed action with her to
seem thus washing her hands. I have known her
continue in this a quarter of an hour.
LADY MACBETH Yet here’s a spot.
DOCTOR Hark, she speaks. I will set down what comes
from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more
strongly.
LADY MACBETH Out, damned spot, out, I say! One. Two.
Why then, ’tis time to do ’t. Hell is murky. Fie, my
lord, fie, a soldier and afeard? What need we fear
who knows it, when none can call our power to
account? Yet who would have thought the old man
to have had so much blood in him?
DOCTOR Do you mark that?
LADY MACBETH The Thane of Fife had a wife. Where is
she now? What, will these hands ne’er be clean? No
more o’ that, my lord, no more o’ that. You mar all
with this starting.
DOCTOR Go to, go to. You have known what you should
not.
GENTLEWOMAN She has spoke what she should not,
I am sure of that. Heaven knows what she has
known.
LADY MACBETH Here’s the smell of the blood still. All
the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little
hand. O, O, O!
DOCTOR What a sigh is there! The heart is sorely
charged.
GENTLEWOMAN I would not have such a heart in my
bosom for the dignity of the whole body.
DOCTOR Well, well, well.
GENTLEWOMAN Pray God it be, sir.
DOCTOR This disease is beyond my practice. Yet I have
known those which have walked in their sleep,
who have died holily in their beds.
LADY MACBETH Wash your hands. Put on your nightgown.
Look not so pale. I tell you yet again, Banquo’s
buried; he cannot come out on ’s grave.
DOCTOR Even so?
LADY MACBETH To bed, to bed. There’s knocking at the
gate. Come, come, come, come. Give me your
hand. What’s done cannot be undone. To bed, to
bed, to bed.Lady Macbeth exits.
DOCTOR Will she go now to bed?
GENTLEWOMAN Directly.
DOCTOR
Foul whisp’rings are abroad. Unnatural deeds
Do breed unnatural troubles. Infected minds
To their deaf pillows will discharge their secrets.
More needs she the divine than the physician.
God, God forgive us all. Look after her.
Remove from her the means of all annoyance
And still keep eyes upon her. So, good night.
My mind she has mated, and amazed my sight.
I think but dare not speak.
GENTLEWOMAN Good night, good doctor.
They exit.

[Beowulf]

"by Reasonwhy » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:02 am

Welcome back, Beowulf"!

Thank you Yes, this is a pleasant diversion from the sad task of putting away things of my mothers, (good god Lizzie Borden's Hatchet vs blood spatter column is a 'pleasant diversion from...' did I really say that?!)

Well, it is actually.

Lady Macbeth never actually did the murder and yet her conscience bothered her to the point she committed suicide. Lizzie never seemed troubled by it at all, even if she was as some think innocent.

Yes, I am speaking more to repugnance at the gore/savagery of a hatcheting. Messy, ugh! Skull, brains eyeball chopped up and stuff from it on the floor...blood soaking into the rug, the couch, Mrs. Borden's hair, face. It's horrific! How could you feel comfortable with that? It's not Tony Randall committing these murders, is it? I wonder that someone has not pointed out as proof this woman Lizzie lived a clean life and lived in a clean house. She was orderly, neat. She would not have done this! It being it would be a revulsion to her. I don't know, maybe after all, that WAS the thinking at the time which we may have forgotten...'such a woman COULDN'T have done this. Not only because she is too genteel, too dainty but she would not make such a messy, revolting sight.

It's unfortunate that we do not see how Emma fared afterward KNOWING what happened, people who are normal never get over these things really and it shows in their following life's days, they have post traumatic stress syndrome issues but then Emma was not there for all the fun. Yet, it was her family and so violent, she would still have problems from it.But to SEE the damage, the horror of it would be especially damning to the normal mind, and I've always supposed Emma was normal. Sudden thought...maybe she was not? I don't know if she showed up and got glimpses of the blood and gore, anyone?

How about Lizzie in immediate days following? Did she have any signs of trauma showing her to be also reacting normally to this whole ugly horrific very personal thing? I know they moved out of the house, I do not know how soon after and that she bought that lovely home and had parties in it and I've even read she constructed a sort of a speak easy in the basement. Of course one does get past things eventually but how about those first days for her? I wonder if there are any reports of her having emotional distresses, depressions, anger issues? Were there forgotten incidents the reason the town made her a pariah? Are there unspoken stories of odd behavior. I really wish I knew that.

But back to the blood splatter matter. I wonder, whether she was protected by a dress or some overcoatish thing while standing there swinging away after Mrs. Borden falling down and bleeding into the pile of the rug. I imagine the murderer would have to move about as she swung in the directions needed to at Mrs. Borden. After the first blow she swayed and fell in the immediate vicinity. Then to stand there for the next few minutes to make those extra strokes totaling the number 18 or 19 was she not at some point standing in blood?

Why were there no footprints in the rug from the blood or were there footprints in the rug? What about blood on the bottom of the murderers shoes or splattered blood on the top of the shoes, drops of blood on the top of the shoes? If barefoot, no problem, wash your feet but then how about leaving footprints in the bloody and splattered rug? Was there any mention of that? Did they at all take a close look at the rug for prints and her shoes for blood because I can't imagine you could stand right over someone and hack away and not eventually end up standing in some blood. But when I look at the old photo I do not see any on the rug next to the bureau. How about on the other side? There does not seem to be room enough to stand on that side anyway but which side do they think the murderer was standing as they let the axe or hatchet fly on Mrs. Borden? In front of the head? Btw, if a hatchet then she had to be leaning over or crouched down? From the photo in front of Mrs. Borden's head on the rug or wall is not able to be seen. Is there any mention of the direction of blood splatter in that room? If she stood in the blood how did she not track it across the room as she left? The bed with it's white bedspread seems to be spotless. In the ensuing hour did she change the bedspread? Is that not a crazy thought. Then the problem of what she did with the old bedspread did Bridget catch on to that, 'hey! That's not the same bedspread'...or did Bridget keep her mouth shut? Opens up a whole new avenue of thought. But look at the splatter on that diagram of Mr. Borden, it went on the walls and doors, force made it fly so where are the splatters in the wife's room and how did the bedspread stay so nice and clean?

[Kat]

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/evidence ... idence.htm

My post about the possible blood on the wallpaper in the sitting room above Andrew was in direct response to the first post in this topic that says there's no blood on the wall paper. Then I gave the link to Dolan's testimony about where the blood in each room showed up. (Please see link above...It should answer blood questions.)


I still would like to know if the arc mark in sitting room looks like blood arc described by Dolan. Just folks opinion.

I totally agree with you Beowolf about footprints in blood! That should have been detected, acknowledged and photographed, yes. I think the police knew enough (with what little they did have , forensically, at that time) to at least document these things you ask! Maybe it was too late to detect or record bloody footprints because of the high volume of traffic going in and out of the guest room. (But as I think about it, as far as we know, the first responder to enter the room after the killer, was Bridget!)

However, the picture you see here of Abbie, was taken after the bed was removed and returned to its relative position, and also remember 2 chairs were removed from this small area.

Also, if a long handle was used on the implement, the killer would be further removed from the head they were hitting. And Lizzie's shoes and stockings weren't even gathered until after Thursday...but you are right on track with your questions.

[Kat]

Here is the photo with the guest room carpet removed. It actually extends under the bed! You can see by the removal, the large area that had blood. (I was going to say "Abbie's blood" but actually, I think killers sometimes injure themselves at the scene, especially using a bladed instrument. There may have been a co-mingling of blood, but we'll never know. I always thought it likely...that's why my interest in "The Bloody Handkerchief" that was found in the room)

[Kat]

I may not be a forensic expert but I am not a slob either - neither were the Bordens...

Hi! May I ask from where you got this photo, it's very clear! I would like to know if the spots were added by you plz? I've not seen the crime scene with spots like this before. I'm curious. Thanks!

I am adding my own drawing of the scene, and closely following Dr Dolan's Prelim testimony, pages 93-98. There are no spots mentioned on the door to the dining room, except the long stain that's actually in the dining room. Ed Wood at trial later says this "string" is yellow and not blood.

The picture above the lounge actually has 40 spots, that came diagonally from the head, about 5 feet high. Your depiction of that seems pretty close to the witness's, but too high: the spots were "as though shooting directly upward...diagonally from the head."

There were 7 spots on the parlor door and jamb( sorry my scale is off a bit)- about 5' high and about 5' from the head. And then there is that arc of blood I was posting about when I revived this thread, that is not highlighted in your illustration.

Plz note there are written notes on here that identify spots and pools of blood not seen, until the lounge was moved, one being on the ceiling.

I've always drawn the depictions of testimony if I can, because I find I learn more from it and it fixes it in my head.

Plz clickonpic

[PossumPie]

Kat: GREAT drawing, I must look it over more closely when I get home this evening.

Beowulf: You are correct, Lizzie never seemed sufficiently troubled by the whole affair, guilty or innocent. Of course she may have been the very stoic New Englander, Think to when Lizzie asked if they suspected anyone in the household and they said yeah, you. Her response wasn't panic or denial, it was something to the effect of "should I come along now, or later? Wow, guilty or innocent that's ice water in the veins.

[Reasonwhy]

Thanks for your lengthy, thoughtful reply, Beowulf. This sort of almost stream of consciousness style of writing is how my thoughts about her tend to run, too. It’s helpful how you flesh out your ideas.

I agree with you that Lizzie showed no remorse over Abby, but sometimes I do wonder about Andrew (though I believe she always did intend to kill him, also). I think she decided what she did was necessary, even justified; but, I can imagine her, in a nightmare, crying to him, “Oh, why did you make me do it?” Her life afterward was both compensation and punishment for the crimes, so maybe she only regretted the negative consequences and not the acts themselves.

Wondering if any other Forum members had thought of a link to Macbeth, I came across this posting from Susan, many years ago, on Mon May 02, 2005 10:23 pm:

“…That makes me think of Lizzie cast as Lady Macbeth, "Out, damned spot! Out, I say!" Lizzie, whether guilty or innocent, was touched by the stain of scandal, even her acquittal couldn't erase that….”

So I wonder if Lizzie did feel stained, and whether she blamed Andrew—or herself.

[Reasonwhy]

About the bedspread, Beowulf. Indeed it was stained by blood and the Fall River Historical Society still has it. And Kat saw it, I believe!

[Reasonwhy]

Think to when Lizzie asked if they suspected anyone in the household and they said yeah, you. Her response wasn't panic or denial, it was something to the effect of "should I come along now, or later? Wow, guilty or innocent that's ice water in the veins.

Or the performance of a would-be tragic dramatic actress?
Lizzie reads gothic romantic fantasy, and seems often to put on the mien of the martyred heroine, I believe, as about burning the dress: ‘Oh, how could you let me do it?’ (my paraphrase)
This view of herself I especially see in the verse carved on her Maplecroft mantel and sung at her funeral, which some have seen as her confession and explanation (please see my next post).

[Reasonwhy]

This is it, as Beowulf wrote about on July 6, 2021:

In My Ain Countree

The green leaf o' loyaltie 's beginning for to fa',
The bonnie White Rose it is withering an' a';
But I'll water 't wi' the blude of usurping tyrannie,
An' green it will graw in my ain countree.

[Kat]

About the bedspread, Beowulf. Indeed it was stained by blood and the Fall River Historical Society still has it. And Kat saw it, I believe!

That bedspread has what I call "a few dashes" on it near the bottom, and, in my memory, somewhat faded (unless it's folded to hide bigger blood stains they may not think are appropriate)....Very disappointing...
Haven't been to the FRHS website lately- maybe there's a picture there?

[Steve88778]

No matter who did it - I still can't get over Uncle John's alibi - who remembers the number of the conductor's cap ? It seems like he had that chestnut all ready to whip out if asked...
I don't mind the fact that he remembered 6 Irish priests on board or the coach number because that's something someone would remember, I suppose.

[camgarsky4]

Yep, that sure is an enigma.

[Beowulf]

Amazing that he Fall River Historical Society has the bedspread! So there WAS blood splatter on it. I could not figure how a white bedspread could remain so clean right next to that whole thing.

Any possibility they have the original rug? I’m thinking if they do maybe use luminol to light up any footsteps in blood and compare them with Lizzie’s shoes. There is another problem, do they still HAVE Lizzie’s shoes? The very ones she wore that day, and if they do why not use Luminol on THEM!

That drawing of the blood splatter you did Kat is amazing and very informative. I tried to repeat it here on this post but could not, it’s a personal attachment, and I wish I could but I guess I’ll just have to refer back to it. It’s so hard to envision the scene of them from the description. The arc of 86 spots says a lot to me of if one could stand there and see that scene as it unfolded. I am surprised there were not more on the bedspread which makes me suspect she was using a hatchet and leaning closer to the head of Mrs.Borden and so the sprays were not flying so far? I am thinking there must’ve been blood sprayed on Lizzie’s face in that case and so there is the old problem of how her hair was so clean and neat but I guess a handkerchief could be used. Is that your suspicion with the handkerchief?. I can’t imagine those sprays did not temper her behavior, but obviously they did not.

I have never seen the picture of the room with the rug removed. I can’t see the blood stain on the floor, it’s all grey tones and I can’t distinguish the blood but I guess that means it soaked through the rug?

About the bedspread, Beowulf. Indeed it was stained by blood and the Fall River Historical Society still has it. And Kat saw it, I believe!

That bedspread has what I call "a few dashes" on it near the bottom, and, in my memory, somewhat faded (unless it's folded to hide bigger blood stains they may not think are appropriate)....Very disappointing...
Haven't been to the FRHS website lately- maybe there's a picture there?

[Kat]

I asked my sister's opinion about whether the clothing taken from Andrew and Abbie, and the pieces of the house and the pieces cut out of the rugs, etc. could still be in someone's possession (police, Jennings, FRHS, or prosecutor etc) and she said not likely: those things saturated in blood would all have been destroyed. I think she's right. It would all be smelly and rotted.
My thought on the handkerchief was that the murderer could have used it to cover their face or hair, yes. I was leaning toward bandito-style, worn to protect the identity of the killer, but sure, could be used to protect against blood spatter, by any perp. It was never proven as to whom it belonged.

Did you see my picture of the 2 chairs in that area where Abbie was found? It further complicates the space...
EDIT HERE...Sorry, I just noticed the words I had typed at the bottom left of this picture when I made it, identifying this as a "fakefoto" did not show up, so I have re-typed them on it

[Beowulf]

No! I have never seen that photo! There is nearly no room at all in there! I suppose she stood on the left side after the initial blow which I believe they said Mrs. Borden was facing front when first hit and spun around and fell. Imagine if Lizzie DID wear the handkerchief bandito style as you say, but that would not cover the hair, no? How frightening to see her that way with a hatchet or an axe in her hand. I wonder if she was facing the other way and Lizzie called out to her and she turned around to see this monster. Last thing she ever saw.

How did those chairs stay white”? Did they also have splatter? Where is the info about the blood soaked handkerchief? Where was it found? What was made of that? You are so right.

[Beowulf]

Yes, the poem and it does seem a confession. The reading of gothic romantic books and putting on the mien of the martyred heroine as you so aptly say/ the would be tragic dramatic actress. Delusional thinking! Pretty creepy I can see that!

Think to when Lizzie asked if they suspected anyone in the household and they said yeah, you. Her response wasn't panic or denial, it was something to the effect of "should I come along now, or later? Wow, guilty or innocent that's ice water in the veins.

Or the performance of a would-be tragic dramatic actress?
Lizzie reads gothic romantic fantasy, and seems often to put on the mien of the martyred heroine, I believe, as about burning the dress: ‘Oh, how could you let me do it?’ (my paraphrase)
This view of herself I especially see in the verse carved on her Maplecroft mantel and sung at her funeral, which some have seen as her confession and explanation (please see my next post).

[Steve88778]

The above picture is about as real as Lizzie sitting on the bed, watching TV and telling Abby to kill herself with a Swiss Army knife.
The chairs are obviously inserted in ( and a bad quality at that ) and the person is obviously not fat like Abby was.

[Kat]

It's the original photo and I added the chairs that belong there, so only the chairs are manipulated. Plz see my "edit" comments.

[Kat]

Here is the other fakefoto I made in 2003, "Abbie with chairs" by following the description of the room thru testimony. However, this would not be accurate, I believe, because by the time the bed was moved away the chairs would have been moved away too. But I figured one other view might still be helpful to envision the scene.

[camgarsky4]

Your photos jogged my brain on something....I recall there was a spot of blood roughly in the NW corner behind a chair that didn't seem like a natural place for blood splatter to hit. I'll go back and find that testimony and share if it still seems off when I reread it.

Thanks Kat....we really enjoy you sharing some of the work you have done making this case a little bit clearer.

[Kat]

This testimony is elicited while the court and witness are examining the crime scene photos of Abbie in the guest room- that is the context of the word "view" when Adams' is questioning:

Dolan
Prelim
(Mr. Knowlton) When did you call for the yard stick, the first or second view?
A. The second time I went up stairs.
Q. You asked for it for some purpose connected with the view?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did any person go out of the room for it?
A. I do not know.
(Mr. Adams) At that first view was there a chair by the bureau, and between the bureau and the window?
A. No Sir. I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of a camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.

Page 198

Q. What has become of that chair?
A. It was in the house on Second street the last time I was there.
Q. It was not taken away?
A. No Sir.
Q. Whether there was a chair at the end of the bureau between the bureau and the window, when you saw that room the first time?
A. I think there was a cane seated chair.
Q. Was there any chair near it?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Was this a chair with ordinary legs, or legs with a rocker?
A. That I would not say.
Q. You do not recollect whether it was a sewing chair, or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you remember any work basket being there?
A. Yes Sir, immediately in front of this chair.
Q. What was this work basket resting on?
A. On the floor---- no, I think it was a rocking chair up against the bureau, and then the basket was sitting on the other ordinary cane seated chair, opposite.
Q. You mean the rocking chair was up against the bureau at the end of it, between that and the window, in that space?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The other chair was on the other side of the window in front of it, having the work basket on it?
A. Yes Sir, and the sewing machine behind it.
Q. Is that in the photograph?
A. No Sir.

[Kat]

Where is the info about the blood soaked handkerchief? Where was it found? What was made of that? You are so right.

Thanks for asking questions!
Here is the link to my bloody handkerchief essay/investigation, in our Hatchet magazine:

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... chief.html

[Kat]

Your photos jogged my brain on something....I recall there was a spot of blood roughly in the NW corner behind a chair that didn't seem like a natural place for blood splatter to hit. I'll go back and find that testimony and share if it still seems off when I reread it.

Thanks Kat....we really enjoy you sharing some of the work you have done making this case a little bit clearer.

Here is a link to our Lizzieandrewborden website where "Blood Evidence" has been collected thru testimony:

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/evidence ... idence.htm

[Kat]

The above picture is about as real as Lizzie sitting on the bed, watching TV and telling Abby to kill herself with a Swiss Army knife.
The chairs are obviously inserted in ( and a bad quality at that ) and the person is obviously not fat like Abby was.

May I ask if the dots (of blood?) on the crime scene photo of "Andrew on the couch" were Photoshopped and put there by you?
May I suggest that that kind of manipulation of a photo should be designated as such by the "author" and also with your name on it, as it preserves your work.
I apologize that at my end, the photo I manipulated and posted had the fakefoto designation, but was not visible, once posted, which confused folks. I have fixed that issue.

[Beowulf]

Who cleaned up the blood?

Normally, these days, the police do not and the ones who own the home do. So after all the investigation was done, and I don't know how long Bridget stuck around, didn't she leave kind of fast? who did clean it up? It was rather everywhere in those two rooms and I'm wondering how ironic it would be if Lizzie and Emma had to do some of that. I imagine they hired someone? Anyone know?

[Reasonwhy]

Lazy, entitled Lizzie? Beowulf, my money’s on Emma. She was probably too ashamed to have the new help do it. And after all, she’d cleaned up after Lizzie for most of her life.

[Reasonwhy]

Do I sound too cynical about Lizzie? My feelings are like those of Officer Harrington: ‘I don’t like that girl.’

[Kat]

I said the same thing about Bence!

Well, I went to the FRHS website, lizzieborden.org and snapped a partial list of their Lizzie "Hip Bath" collection, Beowulf, and they not only have the bedspread, they have the 2 pillow shams! They used to sell the crime photographs, but I don't know that they still do.
So! I did find, just for you, the bedspread!

[Kat]

Here is the bedspread described in their listing, at lizzieborden.org
Fall River Historical Society.
Plz clickonpic

[Kat]

And here are the descriptions of the pillow shams, but no picture.
lizzieborden.org
FRHS
Plz clickonpic

[Steve88778]

Thanks for clearing that up. I just don't understand - were there chairs in the room ? not photographed ? because I am wondering why was the photo that U posted up for debate / discussion.

[camgarsky4]

Your question regarding the chairs is answered in the testimony kat provided above.

[Kat]

I have 1 more for Beowulf (your lucky day! )
From the FRHS website, lizzieborden.com
It's the Kieran floor plan that shows the area of the guest room rug cut out, added after- looks like chalk? It extends under the bureau and under the bed.

[Steve88778]

Hi! May I ask from where you got this photo, it's very clear! I would like to know if the spots were added by you plz? I've not seen the crime scene with spots like this before. I'm curious. Thanks!

KAT: I just searched Andrew Borden Couch - and found one, here -https://www.legendsofamerica.com/lizzie-borden/
If one were to investigate any picture to see it it was altered - EXIF / Metadata would be left on the picture. And you would need an EXIF viewer to find out. I did not go to that detail as it is not worth the time. I have seen many shots of this and they all look basically the same, but are hard to see so I zoomed in as close as possible.
I am just assuming that the lens on the camera was dust free as well as the plate and the enlarger that was used / if used , to produce this pic. I am also assuming that the photographer wanted to photograph Mr. Borden only and got the blood spots as well.

The one I had did not have any bearing on the post so I took it down. But yes, the room was showered in blood as well as the top half of the aslaiant.

[PossumPie]

I once downloaded the largest most pixel-dense picture I could find of the couch/body and used Photoshop to strengthen the contrast/brightness/edge definition and came up with a clean picture. Zooming in, most of what looked like blood spatter were really pattern of the wallpaper. In other words, if you see what you think is spatter, look at the wallpaper and see if the same place higher up in the pattern has the same mark. Given what can be ruled out as wallpaper pattern, the "shower" of blood was actually a "spray" and was in relatively arching pattern. Reading the report of the position and size of each droplet from the official documents, they back up my claim.
The room/assailant were NOT awash in blood, I would even go so far as to say that if the assailant removed any blood from their face, they could have gone unnoticed if someone were to see them right after the attack. If they were in an all white dress, or suit, then perhaps they would be more obvious. We've all seen the black-and-white pictures of the crime scenes, I'm bewildered why people insist on bloody messes on rooms and clothes. We can see with our own eyes there is no bloody mess on the walls. The large pools are under the bodies and a direct result of gravity fed blood loss during livor-mortis. No blood-drenched assailant, No blood drenched walls/ceiling. Perhaps it's all relative: I'm a nurse and have seen, slipped through and had my hands in large quantities of blood. Trauma cases with living people still pumping blood out are messy. Comparatively, a few sprays of fine droplets from a sharp instrument are not so dramatic.
I've looked and looked for a forensic journal article showing blood on assailant's clothes, but everything is the crime scene photos with no suspect in custody. I'll try to keep looking. I found one years ago (since lost it) that was a forensic technician in a white cotton jump suit with blood spatter on her. It was obvious (because of the clean white jumpsuit) but not nearly as much blood as people keep believing should be there. If the clothing were a patterned dark dress instead, it would have been invisible. The other frustration is that most of the recreations on YouTube show the fake blood is actually food colored-water. This doesn't have the same viscosity as blood so while the directionality will be accurate, the amount and placement of the drops are exaggerated.

[Beowulf]

Do I sound too cynical about Lizzie? My feelings are like those of Officer Harrington: ‘I don’t like that girl.’

'

This is fascinating. My money's on Emma and Officer Harrington. Police officers really have an instinct. I don't know if it is acquired or that is what leads them to the work in the first place but I never read that before and it tells a lot.

[Beowulf]

Gosh, Kat. Thank you! So (1) they have the bedspread and shams (wish they could do DNA on that blood but I don't suppose they have Lizzie's samples available) (2) When you said blood soaked handkerchief I had no idea it was that big OR that blood soaked! (3) The area that looks like chalk (at first when looking I thought, "I don't see any area that looks like...!!!Wow it DOES look like chalk") well, that area is large and there is NO WAY the murderer would not have been standing in blood, unless that is seepage after the fact but I imagine the blood seeped out rather quickly during those 18 to 19 strokes of the weapon. (4) But do they have her shoes? Could they do luminol on them if they do. Dream answer. Yep, her shoes have blood but then I suppose Lizzy would be like, 'well, when I found her...'

Thank you for that diligence! And those answers!

I have 1 more for Beowulf (your lucky day! )
From the FRHS website, lizzieborden.com
It's the Kieran floor plan that shows the area of the guest room rug cut out, added after- looks like chalk? It extends under the bureau and under the bed.

[PossumPie]

Gosh, Kat. Thank you! So (1) they have the bedspread and shams (wish they could do DNA on that blood but I don't suppose they have Lizzie's samples available) (2) When you said blood soaked handkerchief I had no idea it was that big OR that blood soaked! (3) The area that looks like chalk (at first when looking I thought, "I don't see any area that looks like...!!!Wow it DOES look like chalk") well, that area is large and there is NO WAY the murderer would not have been standing in blood, unless that is seepage after the fact but I imagine the blood seeped out rather quickly during those 18 to 19 strokes of the weapon. (4) But do they have her shoes? Could they do luminol on them if they do. Dream answer. Yep, her shoes have blood but then I suppose Lizzy would be like, 'well, when I found her...'

Thank you for that diligence! And those answers!

You're theoretically right about the DNA retrieval if the cloth was stored in decent conditions (low light/heat/radiation/humidity). My question would be what benefit? I believe they would have noticed a wound on Lizzie at the time so I doubt any blood was hers. I also doubt that the killer was standing in blood as Abbey was struck from behind and immediately fell forwards. The killer would have had to either straddle her waist or kneel between her legs to keep whacking. The blood pool would have been around her head. Blood is thick and doesn't seep that quickly without a pump (heart) to keep the pressure up. When the killer left, it would have just begun pooling. 19 whacks would take less than half-a-minute in an adrenaline-fueled attack. Give the killer another 10 seconds to admire their work and it's still under a minute.
You're also correct about luminol-ing Lizzies shoes except as you mention, finding Andrew's body could explain incidental blood on her shoes as stepping in it after the fact. As Kat mentioned about the TV special that she was a part of...I would have rather seen them Luminol Lizzies doorway, floor, etc. It wouldn't have been as dramatic as Luminol-ing the floorboards(we KNEW that would light up) but may have given some new circumstantial evidence! Kat, did they give you any reason that they chose not to Luminol upstairs?

[Steve88778]

Thanks I never thought of using Photoshop to adjust the contrast and other lighting things.

[PossumPie]

Thanks I never thought of using Photoshop to adjust the contrast and other lighting things.

Yes, I adjusted contrast and brightness, then Used Filter Unsharp-mask to sharpen all of the edges in the photo. Went to Pen tool and began doting all dark spots on the wallpaper that were not part of the pattern. At first, I thought it was quite a lot of blood, but I began looking more closely and saw that they wallpaper pattern had dark spots occurring throughout the pattern. Once I ignored the "regularly occurring" dots, there weren't so many. When done, I could see an arc of blood near the couch, spots on the picture frame, and behind him on the door frames. Of course, being black and white I couldn't be sure it wasn't a fly sitting on the wall or a bit of dust in front of the lens, but it was still impressive. I ended up deleting the picture because nothing I could say or demonstrate would change some folks minds that the walls were somehow awash in dripping blood...

[Beowulf]

Kat: GREAT drawing, I must look it over more closely when I get home this evening.

Beowulf: You are correct, Lizzie never seemed sufficiently troubled by the whole affair, guilty or innocent. Of course she may have been the very stoic New Englander, Think to when Lizzie asked if they suspected anyone in the household and they said yeah, you. Her response wasn't panic or denial, it was something to the effect of "should I come along now, or later? Wow, guilty or innocent that's ice water in the veins.

I have to say I have read this and thought of this and laughed at this about ten times. " suspected anyone in the household and they said yeah, you" It's pretty funny.

[Steve88778]

I ended up deleting the picture because nothing I could say or demonstrate would change some folks minds that the walls were somehow awash in dripping blood...

Don't bother...

[Kat]

Hi! May I ask from where you got this photo, it's very clear! I would like to know if the spots were added by you plz? I've not seen the crime scene with spots like this before. I'm curious. Thanks!

KAT: I just searched Andrew Borden Couch - and found one, here -https://www.legendsofamerica.com/lizzie-borden/
If one were to investigate any picture to see it it was altered - EXIF / Metadata would be left on the picture. And you would need an EXIF viewer to find out. I did not go to that detail as it is not worth the time. I have seen many shots of this and they all look basically the same, but are hard to see so I zoomed in as close as possible.
I am just assuming that the lens on the camera was dust free as well as the plate and the enlarger that was used / if used , to produce this pic. I am also assuming that the photographer wanted to photograph Mr. Borden only and got the blood spots as well.

The one I had did not have any bearing on the post so I took it down. But yes, the room was showered in blood as well as the top half of the aslaiant.

Thank you for the origin and the website!
Did you notice the author had the wrong pictures of the characters? She had Lizzie's pic and called her Bridget, and she had the 2 ladies, I think from Victorian Vistas? that are certainly not Lizzie and Emma.

But nice clear pics!

The thing this proves tho, is we are looking at a photo of Andrew dead on the couch and we see no obvious blood spatter! That tells us a lot. I'm not sure what, but not gory, anyway.

Do we think the "arc" in the photo without the sofa is the 86 drops? Or do we think it's just wear and tear on the wallpaper from the sofa back being bumped into the wall when folks sat down on it over time?

And..no blood on the door to the dining room and how did the 7 blood drops get on the parlour door and frame 5' away? If it's from the castoff swing of a hatchet in blood, does that seem like a short handle hand hatchet, or likely a long handled one?