Pail of bloody towels

[jcurrie]

EMBARRASSMENT ALERT - male contributors may find this post uncomfortable.

As many of you know, there was a pail of bloody towels found in the kitchen. When Officer Medley. There is a difference in size between ordinary and sanitary towels. Old fashioned sanitary towels were made of birdseed cotton (whatever that is), soaked, washed (presumably by Bridget) and used again. However, by the 1890s disposable towels were beginning to be used. There is actually an contemporary advert in one of the Fall River newspapers for Southalls sanitary towels imported from England. I wonder whether Lizzie used these instead of the older ones. I somehow don't think that these towels were tested for either for Abby or Andrew's blood.

[Kat]

It’s funny you brought this up, now.
Firstly, I had not known of disposable menstrual pads or cloths becoming vogue in the 1890’s, and secondly, I had just done a dive into the topic 2 days ago.

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... php?t=6447

In the link, at the last post, by moi, I provided a link to an even more previous topic where we collected all the “Lizzie’s period” info to put in one place.
I was looking it up to respond to camgarsky’s topic about why all the Borden’s (except Emma) seemed to have changed their summer plans. I still think part of Lizzie’s return to Fall River during her stated “vacation” was because her period was due and it was hot August and she may not have wanted to be away visiting while that inconvenience occurred. I would think it might be embarrassing to have to soak rags in someone else’s home

The link below is the same one I just described, (from the bottom of the last post) that goes into the Privy section and brings it out into a sort of archive.

https://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Arch ... fprivy.htm

[camgarsky4]

I'm going to be bold and tiptoe into this topic.

If we assume Bridget was correct that the pail could not have been their more than a day or so, since she had done the laundry earlier in the week and would have taken care of the pail and its contents.

She left New Bedford on Tuesday, July 26 and the pail was seen August 4. That is potentially 10 days, 9 days if put in the cellar on Wednesday. Would the reason to leave New Bedford that Kat suggests 'fit' time wise?

[Kat]

It was stipulated in court that Lizzie's "sickness" was over Wednesday night by Robinson at trial. That's what I'm going by. But anticipation of her period (if she had hard ones) is PMS
I have no explanation as to Bridget's seeing the pail with bloody rags or not seeing it, or if it was in the kitchen or in the basement.

[Kat]

By the way, that pictogram is me trying to get answers that make sense out of Bridget!

[jcurrie]

Kat, further to your post. I've been browsing through Rebecca Pittman's book "The History and Haunting of Lizzie Borden" and found a chapter on bloody towels. Apparently Dr Dolan sent these rags to Professor Wood in Boston, who confirmed they were soaked in human blood, though there was no mention of what kind of towels they were. During the inquest Bridget was in the care of the jail matron and Bridget said she "could not tell all as there were so many men about". Did she mean that it wasn't Lizzie's time of the month (which apparently ended on the 3rd August). Does this mean that the towels were either hand or bath towels, and not menstrual cloths? Which leads me to question what did Lizzie do about her periods when she was on her European trip? Somehow I can't see Lizzie soaking and washing the towels herself. This would be inconvenient during her travels, to say the least. So, was Lizzie using the newish sanitary towels, which could be either ordered through a catalogue or at department stores. There is an illustration about Southalls disposable towels (invented by the Southall Brothers in Birmingham). The prices were 40 cents (small) and 60 cents (large) a box. This advert dates from the 1890s.

[camgarsky4]

JC -- the tidbit about Dolan sending the rags to Dr. Wood to be tested is new info for me. I've always thought that the rags and pail went to police HQ and that was the last we knew of those items.

Does Pittman's book provide a source for that info?

Thx

[jcurrie]

camgarsky4 - the short answer is no, Ms Pittman did not record where this information came from. Professor Wood confirmed that the blood was human and not animal blood, but this did not seem to be part of his testimony. However, there is a photo in Ms Pittman's book which shows the bloody towels. I cannot believe that these towels were used for menstruation - they are far too large. As I said before in my previous post, I just can't see how Lizzie would use the handmade towels whilst travelling in Europe. It would be too much of an inconvenience. I believe that Johnson and Johnson also manufactured disposable towels as well as the Southall Brothers and a German company. However, as the subject was almost taboo in the 1890s nobody queried just what these towels were used for.

[camgarsky4]

Agree that it is remarkable and disappointing that the bloody towel/water pail was not pursued more vigorously. Considering the Borden house was not some rambling, large house and they had a double murder, it is actually quite shocking how little attention the pail received.

As we've discussed many times, the entire investigation, especially in the first couple days was lacking in sophistication and, more frustrating, common sense.

The 'missing' pail & towels might get more enlightenment when the FRHS publishes the Hilliard papers. As we've enjoyed learning with the Jennings Journals, fresh, original source information keeps surfacing with this case.

[Kat]

Sorry, I don’t have Pittman’s book for reference but I know someone who has- so may I please ask the page number of the picture that “shows the bloody towels” and I will ask them to check?

[Kat]

Kat, further to your post. I've been browsing through Rebecca Pittman's book "The History and Haunting of Lizzie Borden" and found a chapter on bloody towels. Apparently Dr Dolan sent these rags to Professor Wood in Boston, who confirmed they were soaked in human blood, though there was no mention of what kind of towels they were.

---partial

Sorry, jc, but I had never heard of this before, so I consulted 3 people who also never heard of it before, and actually knew the right answer immediately. I'm wondering why Ms. Pittman chooses to create a myth about this?

So, I am showing, from Trial testimony, what Prof. Wood had to say about what he received, on different days, as evidence to be examined.

--Reading Wood’s Trial testimony, he describes what items he received and asked to evaluate. There are no bloody napkins or cloths mentioned or ennumerated:

Trial Prof Wood
...A. No, sir, I never went after that [to the house-KK]. On the morning of the 10th of August I received at the police station in Fall River from Dr. Dolan, that trunk, containing a large number of substances.

Q. Won't you state what they were that you received?

A. I received from Dr. Dolan in that trunk the claw hammer hatchet,---that large hatchet which has been known as the claw hammer hatchet: those two axes which have been already seen: the blue dress skirt ---

Q. Those two hatchets, you mean?

A. No, sir, the claw hammer hatchet and the two axes.

Q. Oh, yes, I beg your pardon: and those two axes?

A. Those two axes, yes, sir: the blue dress skirt and the blue dress waist, the white skirt which is there (garments referred to being exhibited by counsel as the witness named them): the carpet, the sitting room carpet, which is this (holding it up): the bedroom carpet, which is done up in the paper, and

Page 999

which had enclosed in it a piece of false braid, as it has now---a false switch: a lounge cover (opening parcel and producing lounge cover), which is this: a large envelope containing three small envelopes, one labelled" "The hair of Mrs. A. J. Borden, 8/7/92, 12:10 P.M.", the other labelled: "Hair from A. J. Borden, 8/7/92, 12:14 P.M. " and the third labelled: "Hair taken from hatchet." Those were all of the substances which I received at that time from Dr. Dolan.

Q. Those you received directly from Medical Examiner Dolan?

A. Yes, sir, in the police station, he handing me the key to the trunk.

Q. That was on Monday?

A. That was on the 10th of August,---not Monday: it was Thursday, I believe, but I am not quite sure.

Q. No, it was a Wednesday.

A. I am not sure of the day of the week.
……………………...

[--Professor Woods comments show that human blood, and that of a dog or rabbit, upon testing, could be similar.]

Page 1005 (Wood)

That I examined and found it to be a blood stain, and the blood corpuscles when examined with a high power of the microscope averaged in measurement 1-3243 of an inch. That is the average measurement within the limits of human blood, and it is therefore consistent with its being a human blood stain.

Q. With the blood of what other animal would it be consistent?

A. There are some other animals, mostly of the---not domestic animals, which have the same diameter within the human limits, like seal and opossum, and one variety of guinea pig. The rabbit comes pretty near and the dog comes pretty near.
……………………...

--On the 16th of August he received the shoes and stockings of Lizzie Borden. Then on the 30th of August he received further items during The Prelim:

Page 1008 (Wood)

Q. What next?
A. The next was the 30th of August in the court room, at the time of the preliminary hearing in Fall River.

Q. On the day that you testified?
A. On the day and at the

Page 1009

time I testified, while I was testifying or as soon as I got through I received in the court room, by your order, that other hatchet with a handle.

Q. This one?
A. Yes, sir; and that piece of the dining room door frame, and the piece of the guest room mop board. That. The small hatchet I should have mentioned in connection with the claw hammer hatchet, that the edge measures four and a half inches. I omitted that in speaking of it. This hatchet has a cutting edge of three and one eighth inches….
………...
Page 1011+ Wood

A. Yes, sir. After leaving the court room, in the city marshal's office, I received from

Page 1012
City Marshal Hilliard the hatchet head.

Q. What day was that sir?
A. On the 30th of August.

Q. That was the day you were testifying in court?
A. Yes, sir; after I left the court room, when I went down stairs to the marshal's office.

…….....

Page 1021 (Wood)

Q. And is the examination of the corpuscles of dried blood satisfactory in determining whether it is human blood or the blood of some other animal?
A. If it is satisfactory at all, it is.

Q. Yes, if it is satisfactory at all. ……..[etc. about a pin sized dot on skirt ]

[?-me]

………….
Page 1021+ Wood

Q. Are you able to say that that was not a spot of blood which might have gotten on from the menstrual flow of the woman?
A. No, sir, I am not.

Q. It would be entirely consistent with that, would it?

Page 1022

A. Yes, sir, it may have been menstrual blood, or may not, so far as I can determine.
Q. But it may be consistent with that?

A. Yes, sir.

…………….

edited for formatting-KK

[Kat]

I figured I'd throw in the last comment, since it mentions menstrual blood.

[Kat]

Kat, further to your post. I've been browsing through Rebecca Pittman's book "The History and Haunting of Lizzie Borden" and found a chapter on bloody towels...[partial]....During the inquest Bridget was in the care of the jail matron and Bridget said she "could not tell all as there were so many men about".

--partial

We have no record of this conversation between Bridget and anyone. The "quote marks" around this specious remark has me wondering if Ms Pittman, the author, used some spurious newspaper account. We please need no more myths propagated here: maybe you can fact-check these statements by the author before they get to us? Just a suggestion.

I recognize your interest in the "new" technology of personal products available in the 1890's- I had not heard of that- it's interesting.
But to think on it further, every young woman would be going thru the same thing every month and we would naturally wonder how each reacted to that and how they handled it. I mean, Lizzie didn't even have a shower! It's hard to imagine...
I also was trying to imagine Lizzie dealing with that on her long trip, as you were!

[jcurrie]

Kat, the bloody towels photograph is on page 207 of Ms Pittman's book. Where she got the information about what Bridget said to the jail matron and Professor Wood's examination of these bloody towels I don't know. She does have a website so it might be interesting to contact her on www.rebeccafpittmanbooks.com. If she does respond, it will be interesting for all us Lizzie Borden fanatics to know the answer.

I should also point out that Ms Pittman states in her prologue that she had added some background and trivial dialogue as a means of providing atmosphere based on police interviews, inquest, preliminary hearing and Superior Court trial testimonies, newspaper reports and research.

camgarsky4, I didn't know that the Jennings journals were available. Is it possible to purchase a copy? I didn't know either that the FRHS were going to publish the Hilliard papers. That will be even more interesting. I await further developments with eagerness.

[camgarsky4]

JC -- you can order Jennings Journals via the Fall River Historical Society website. Click on the 'shop' button upper right side of the home page. The book is $27.95 + shipping. I've found it to be an excellent primary source for better understanding the involvement of various secondary characters.

For example, Nancy Pool's (Lizzie stayed w/ her for several days in New Bedford) interview w/ Attorney Jennings was substantially more revealing than what Medley reported in the Witness Statements. Same goes for Charles Sawyer, Southard Miller, James Leonard (Bowen's coachman) and truly dozens more. It has helped me 'solve', at least to my satisfaction, at least a half dozen smaller Borden mysterious.

Another book that is seems to be exclusively fact based with no creative (ie. fictional) writing by the author is Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer. It can be ordered via Amazon. If he does speculate, he clearly states that before providing his opinions and interpretations.

[Kat]

Kat, the bloody towels photograph is on page 207 of Ms Pittman's book. Where she got the information about what Bridget said to the jail matron and Professor Wood's examination of these bloody towels I don't know.

—- partial

Yes you are right to question the size of these towels. I have seen that page now (thanks for page #), and the implication is that they are “THE towels.” Unfortunately they are not the towels. Prof Wood was kind of finicky in answering his forensic questions, and you can bet by what he states he Did not receive any such evidence.

[camgarsky4]

JC -- I just read a Fall River Herald article about the book from 2017 with an interview w/ Pittman....before I make any comments that might be a spoiler for the book....are you almost finished with it?

[Kat]

Preliminary Hearing
DR DOLAN
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and
nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this
case?
A. Yes Sir.

[Kat]

What gets me is a serious author has access to the source material in the case, just like the rest of us, but doesn’t utilize these valuable resources to write a legitimate book.
We are left scrambling to de-mythicize once again.

I’ve been looking for pails and cloths and bloody in testimonies.
Don’t get me wrong that the pail with cloths in it are not suspicious- they truly are.
The police in those days were not all clever and sophisticated, granted.

There were other cloths in the case, as well.
There were wet cloths being applied to Lizzie’s brow when Dr. Bowen returned.
There was cloth in the hands of Bridget after washing windows.
There were multiple doctors getting their hands bloody in the wounds, and washed after and would have dried their hands on something. (More than listed here)

Looking for ways “cloths” could end up in a pail in water for laundry:

Bowen

Inquest

….after I found the mother was dead. Miss Russell was at her side in a chair, and was working over her at that time; in a minute or two she got her into the dining room on a sofa or lounge, on the end of that. She was lying down, and she was fanning her, and had wet cloths put on her head, and they were working over her in that way.

Q. Was she faint?

A. Not as I know of at that time. As I found two people murdered there, I supposed the rest would take care of themselves pretty well.

_________________________

Bridget

Prelim
Q. What did you do then?
A. Hung up my cloth I had to wash with, and threw away the water, and went up stairs in my room.
….

Q. After the tragedy, did you yourself empty any pails?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or see any emptied?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see people washing their hands around there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were they washing them?
A. In the sink.
Q. How many different people?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Several?
A. I did not see anybody that I remember, except Dr. Dolan and Dr. Coughlan. (sic) I think I noticed them two.
Q. Dr. Coughlan?
A. I think I saw him washing his hands.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. No Sir, not as I remember.
Q. Did you see anybody washing their hands up stairs?
A. No Sir, I was not up stairs.
Q. Only once when you went up, as you told me?
A. Yes Sir.
End of testimony.
—————————————

I always wondered what happened to all these cloths and we know stuff was buried after the crime was discovered.
————————————
What is a “lounge cover”, BTW?

[Kat]

Included here are most of the list of items taken as evidence. Newspaper accounts of the "secret" burial in the yard on Friday (the 5th) of bloody, smelly artifacts state more items, therefore it's been casually understood that there were more than listed in Chases' Witness Statement: not least of these the clothes of Andrew Borden, and we know 2 pieces of carpet, not one, for instance.

EXHIBITS TRIAL
The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by counsel and sent to the jury:

Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of door frame taken from inside of dining-room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.

Page 1928

Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass.
___________________________-

Witness Statements
Albert E. Chase
Fall River, Mass. August 5, 1892. The following articles and wearing apparel were this afternoon taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn.
1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress, one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.
I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden’s skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan.
…….

[camgarsky4]

Thanks Kat. I'm Recopying Dr. Dolan's prelim testimony because it is a very specific answer to very specific questions. The towels/pail did not leave the police station, unless the future publication of Hilliard's paperwork provides further enlightenment.

If the author wanted her book to be read as fact based w/ a touch of 'connecting the dots', then she should have added footnotes and carefully documented her sources so the reader would be able to discern between established fact and speculative theory. Both are fine to include in a book (in my opinion), but 'which is which' should be made clear to avoid misinforming readers.

Preliminary Hearing
DR DOLAN
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and
nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this
case?
A. Yes Sir.

[Kat]

EMBARRASSMENT ALERT - male contributors may find this post uncomfortable.

As many of you know, there was a pail of bloody towels found in the kitchen.

—- partial

Sorry, but first statement on new thread is inaccurate. It was bothering me but I didn’t know for sure why so I looked it up. I understood there to be a pail brought down by Lizzie to the kitchen according to Bridget, but find it was not described to be the “pail of bloody towels,” but rather a slop pail. Not sure of the origin of the previous assertion, but we seem to have started off with an untrue assumption, somehow.
Here is what I found on Forum (by screenshot)
Plz clic on pic

[Kat]

Well, I haven’t read the book but I am weary of relooking stuff up- anyone can do it- plz?
Fact checkers wanted!
See those dates going back to 2002. There was a “board” discussion group even before 2002 to which our member editso alludes. I belonged to each in succession until Stef started this one, which went thru 3 incarnations. That’s more than 20 years, and nearly 100,000 posts.
(Put some white hair on this cartoon..)

[Kat]

So, what is the lounge cover? It sounds to me like a slipcover for the “lounge?”
Maybe a slipcover for a large pillow on the lounge?
The Borden’s had more than one lounge in the house.

[camgarsky4]

Since cleaning furniture would have been far more tedious and challenging that in today's world, guessing you are correct that a lounge cover = protective cloth covering for all or most of the sofa (aka slip cover).

[Kat]

So, was there a lounge in the dining room and a lounge in Lizzie’s room? Do we consider the sofa in the sitting room a “lounge”?

[camgarsky4]

Per Bridget's testimony, when she is describing AJB's return that morning and when he went into the dining room she mentions a lounge a couple times. I've always figured the dining and sitting room 'sofa/lounge' were similar since similar use.

In my minds eye, I imagine Lizzie's lounge as more casual than a sofa or what was downstairs. Maybe more intended for 'sprawling' out, but not using one's bed to do so. Just googled the terms...what I have envisioned for Lizzie's bedroom lounge is something called a 'fainting couch'. That is just me speculating.

Side note....the lounge in the dining room is one of the reasons I lean towards the 'folded' coat as being part of the AJB death story. The sitting room sofa had a pillow, so wouldn't the dining room lounge also? If so, seems like if he needed more head comfort he would just reach around the corner and grab one off the dining room lounge vs. fold up his 'going out' coat. No way to prove if the dining room lounge had a throw pillow, but it sure seems likely.

[jcurrie]

Kat, I will get in touch with Ms Pittman and ask her where the photo of the bloody towels came from. It is the only photo in her book which doesn't have an acknowledgement of its origins, apart from a photo opposite of a pair of bloody hands which was probably taken for dramatic effect. All other photos came from either the FRHS, the Lizzie Borden forum and one from a local photographer.

There are a couple of minor errors in her book. One purports to be a photo of Lizzie's passport application; this actually shows her cousin Carrie's passport application. The other is very minor - Ms Pittman states that the SS Scynthia, the ocean liner Lizzie travelled on, was owned by the Cunard company, which is correct, but then goes on to say Cunard company also owned the Titanic, which was a White Star Line liner.

This is only speculation, but I can't see Lizzie using handmade menstrual towels on her trip to Europe, rather than the newer, disposable type invented by Southalls, which was readily available in the 1890s. Just a thought.

[Kat]

Appreciate it jc, but I’m satisfied we’ve proven Prof Wood never received them, and the picture is probably meant as indicative, since there was no source or “legend” accompanying it.

I’m on to “lounge cover” and “cotton batting”. I don’t remember these items as part of the case.
I googled cotton batting and apparently it’s used for quilting, sewing, reupholstering furniture, adding a layer to thicken a fabric. I wonder if it came from the sewing room, or if it was downstairs for some reason?

[Kat]

I wonder if the Borden ladies were making a lounge cover?
Would that blow Lizzie’s lid, that they were so rich but yet might have been making a “slipcover!”
Lizzie seems more like a “new furniture” type. (Not suggesting motive for murder…)

[camgarsky4]

I agree, never seen a slip cover or the cotton batting discussed.....nice fresh topic.

I've been googling cotton batting and, so far, using as the stuffing for a quilt is about 99% of the links I'm finding. I imagine the slip cover was covering the sofa AJB was killed on, but the cotton batting must have come from the guest room since it was buried with the bloody ruined materials.

Per google....A pillow case is used to keep your pillow clean as you sleep while a pillow sham is used to hide your pillows behind a more decorative façade.

Or could the cotton batting have been what was the stuffing for the lounge pillow AJB had his head on? Could the strikes have burst open the lounge pillow?

[Kat]

Under orders of John V Morse, some major items were buried in the yard, on Friday.But I don’t recall that these two items were included. We only find out about them from Prof Wood’s list of what he received.
They could have been part of an ongoing sewing project, but that would mean they would be in the sewing room= Guest Room.
He also doesn’t say if there was blood on them.

I keep thinking of this:
Lizzie inquest
Q. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she [Abbie] was sewing up there?
A. I don't know. She had given me a few weeks before some pillow cases to make.

But,as you have already described, shams are not pillow cases. Shams might use batting, but not pillow slips.

[camgarsky4]

Good find on Lizzie's testimony about Abby asking her to make some pillow cases. It would make sense that if you are in the process (albeit apparently very slowly) of making pillow cases, creating the actual inner cushy pillow may have been one of the steps. That stuffing being located in the sewing area (which was directly behind where Abby's assailant would have stood) would make sense.

Seems like it must have had blood on it or was lying very near one of the victims or why was it collected and buried?

Do you think there might be any merit to the idea that it was the stuffing of the lounge pillow? Would be nice if they had documented more details of the items buried, like how much of the cotton batting was there. Was it in the 'format' that one might purchase it or was it a small amount that would help indicate its prior use?

The lack of details noted in the buried clothing inventory is another demonstration of how the investigation lacked sophistication, thoroughness, or coordination.

[Kat]

Yes, I agree those things might have been near a murdered Borden, to be taken away.
I didn’t think they had been buried tho, but you may be right, because the carpet and hair switch were certainly buried.
Wood says he got access to the trunk on the 10th, but the second autopsy was on the 11th.
But the items were dug up twice, so I will check to see when.

[camgarsky4]

Extract from the listing of buried items from your posting above....."1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth."

As I cut and pasted, I reread and they do quantify the cotton batting as one roll. If you assume that signifies quantity similar to the photos of batting rolls you posted above, then that is a goodly amount and likely not a partial of what was the stuffing of the sofa pillow....which was also buried.

This might suggest the cotton batting was for sewing purposes and came from the guest room.

[Kat]

On Friday, Aug 5, items buried (in the yard). The list of Chase in the Witness Statements is incomplete.

Sunday, Aug 7, Dr Dolan and Dr Leary and Fleet, reassessed the bodies at Oak Grove Cemetery, and on Aug 8, Dr Dolan ordered a dig-up at the Borden yard, went through items, picked out choice pieces (including taking a piece of the coat and shirt of Mr Borden, which were not on any list until then and that was from a newspaper report), and then remainder items re-buried.

Thursday, Aug 11, last day of inquest, remainder items dug up and retained by the prosecution, same day as the “second autopsy.”

Aug 17, the Borden bodies were finally buried at Oak Grove, but without their heads.

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... chief.html

[Reasonwhy]

Hi Kat,
From your post above, did the newspaper article include any detail about which coat of Andrew’s? Could this mean THE outerwear coat some of us suspect Lizzie might have donned backwards and worn as a blood shield? Or, does this mean the vest?/sweater?/jacket? he wore over his shirt but under his overcoat?
If it was the overcoat, and was bloody or feared to have minute blood stains, I could see why Morse might rush to bury it (to deflect suspicion from Lizzie), and why Lizzie might have agreed with its burying. And blood on it might be the reason Dr. Dolan took a piece of it.

[Kat]

Oh my, that’s a hard question to answer. The reporters were not supposed to be there, it was a secret exhumation of the items. Either the news leaked, or the press was there hanging around (probably), but I doubt they could really see- so I assume one or more had “inside information.” They were pretty consistent with their reportage about this, which makes it easier on a researcher. One lone report could be assumed to be just stirring the pot.
Since it states part of the shirt of Andrew was taken, I had guessed part of the coat he was wearing, next to the shirt.
But then it states (above) that the pillow and tidy were taken, and that’s where the other coat was…so don’t know the answer.

But anyone could have used the coat found under Andrew’s head, if it was used as a shield from blood spatter by his murderer.
My impression was Morse was in charge of things- don’t know if anyone asked Lizzie, or Emma, if bloody things could be buried.
Oh, and the sofa was taken, but that’s not mentioned either!

[Kat]

I wanted to put up the 1892 calendar, too, but plz don’t let it interfere with posts.

[Kat]

Next, I think we should be asking about those 2 aprons! Since it’s so much later in the week from laundry day, maybe they were just part of the laundry? We don’t have any testimony that aprons were worn that day, to become part of the crime scene…

[camgarsky4]

Kat, I've been 'percolating' on that second apron for a while now.

I'm in the camp that Lizzie wore an apron that morning knowing what was to ensue (since she had failed to procure something less messy the previous morning). It would not be unusual for any lady to wear an apron in-house and might be part of the reason that Bridget couldn't recall what Lizzie's dress looked like.

Abby wore an apron because that is what ladies wore when they were cleaning.

After Lizzie dealt with Abby, she removed the apron and secured it somewhere out of sight since it had inexplainable blemishes. She didn't wear it again for AJB because, (1) it was already messy, (2) she didn't have time to go up and fetch it. So (in my opinion), she used the Prince Albert Coat with AJB.

What adds 'depth' to this theory is Lizzie's odd need for a second trip to the cellar the night of August 4th. As Officer Hyde testified and put in the witness statements, Lizzie came down to the cellar alone, but just moments after she had come down with Alice. Lizzie did not go to the 'water closet' on the second trip. She went into the wash room, bent down near the sink and then went back upstairs.
Per Officer Chase witness statement (pasted below), the wash bucket with all the murder clothes was in the wash room and Lizzie already knew that or saw it she and Alice went down moments earlier.

The only plausible alternative to the aprons being worn by Abby and Lizzie would be that the doctors who performed the 'autopsies' in the house wore medical aprons and tossed them in the pile of clothes after use. I don't buy this explanation because I would presume their medical aprons always got bloody and messy during procedures and I imagine they would wash and clean aprons vs. throwing away.

Witness Statements Page 42.
ALBERT E. CHASE
Fall River, Mass. August 5, 1892. The following articles and wearing apparel were this afternoon
taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and
Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn.
1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and
several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress, one pair drawers, one
skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight
inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.
I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to
be a piece of Mrs. Borden’s skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining
what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very
sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan.
About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out
pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again. This time they were all put in a
box.

[Kat]

Do you have a source —( I know- those dreaded 5 words from me-) that has any female at the house who we know wore an apron that day?
I just checked Witness Statements, Inquest, Prelim and Trial (which anyone can re-check).
Churchill was asked if Lizzie had one on that morning - she didn’t think so.

Bridget was asked and she couldn’t tell whether she did or not.

Lizzie was asked and she said no.

Dr Leary [sic- Cheever]was asked if he wore an apron (in his work) and he said he usually did, during his duties.(edit here-I don’t mean to imply Cheever was there Thursday- he was hired much later by the defense- and he was one of two to find that darn “gilt.” I was doing a word search in my computer for “apron” so included Cheever at trial.)

And it didn’t seem as if anyone asked Bridget if she herself wore one that day? (Speculation here: Of all of them, I would think Bridget would wear one while washing windows. And Lizzie might don one when rummaging in the dusty barn…)
They weren’t cleaning—Abbie was dusting. (And I seem to recall Lizzie said she had asked Abbie if she was going out in the dress she had on-so it didn’t seem like the dress would need an apron to feather dust around).

[Kat]

Kat, I've been 'percolating' on that second apron for a while now.

I'm in the camp that Lizzie wore an apron that morning knowing what was to ensue (since she had failed to procure something less messy the previous morning). It would not be unusual for any lady to wear an apron in-house and might be part of the reason that Bridget couldn't recall what Lizzie's dress looked like.—partial(KK)
…….

Abby wore an apron because that is what ladies wore when they were cleaning.
The only plausible alternative to the aprons being worn by Abby and Lizzie would be that the doctors who performed the 'autopsies' in the house wore medical aprons and tossed them in the pile of clothes after use. I don't buy this explanation because I would presume their medical aprons always got bloody and messy during procedures and I imagine they would wash and clean aprons vs. throwing away.

— partial (KK)

Me: We have 2 aprons to account for- but I have wondered, in the past, if the doctors were offered or asked for aprons, prior to performing cursory autopsies in the house, on 2 bodies that day.

[camgarsky4]

Doctors who participated in the August 4th autopsy of AJB and Abby.

Source: Boston Globe August 5.
Dr. John Leary, Dr. Seabury Bowen, Dr. Anson C. Peckham, Dr. Emanuel C. Dutre, and Mayor/Doctor J.W. Coughlin.

I imagine, medical examiner, Dr. Dolan also participated.

[Kat]

Thanks.
Yes, it was Dr Dolan's autopsy, and Dr Bowen took the notes.

Sorry, I mistook Dr Cheever for Dr Leary in the trial testimony:
Cheever says he sometimes uses a rubber apron, but he did not attend the autopsy at the Borden house- sorry to be confusing- was just looking for Dr’s and aprons).
Q. And when you perform an operation do you ordinarily put on different outer clothing?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What does that consist of?
A. Usually a white linen jacket or a white linen gown; something of that kind.
Q. And when you say a white linen gown, do you mean something like a linen jacket?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Like a duster?
A. Like a long apron.
Q. Anything else?
A. Sometimes an India rubber apron also.
Q. And what are those things put on for?
A. Partly to insure absolute cleanliness and partly to protect my clothes.
Q. From what?
A. From blood.
Q. From blood?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It is quite a usual thing for you in operations to be spattered with blood, isn't it?
A. Very.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I do think it's possible the Dr.'s wore the aprons, but I also wondered if they carried aprons around with them, in their bags, but if they just "showed up" so to speak, then they would need something to cover their clothes and would likely toss them on the floor when done.

[Kat]

I do see there is a news article, “Fall River Daily Globe” of Aug 8, titled “In The Dark”, included in the Jennings Journals, pg 264, that mentions “…[Lizzie’s] dress and apron that she wore on the day…were turned over to the police…”
Maybe that’s where the idea came from that Lizzie wore an apron that day.

[camgarsky4]

I've read a few "Victorian apron" articles and it is the predominate point of view that women would wear aprons in their homes when they were cleaning since cleaning their handmade dresses was not an easy task. Since we know that Abby was dusting the first floor rooms and making up the beds in the guest room, I have presumed that she was wearing an apron.

If one of the two aprons was from Abby's body, then a single additional apron would mean that only one of the 6+ doctors at the autopsy wore an apron. I suppose more than one doctor could have worn a body cover (ie. apron), but taken it with them.

What are your thoughts on the purpose of Lizzie's solo visit to the cellar wash room the night of August 4th? Robinson implied it was for 'personal care' reasons, but Kat has reminded us that the court stipulated that would not have been the case on Thursday.

[jcurrie]

Just to let all contributors know, I did contact Ms Pittman regarding the photo of the bloody towels. She replied that it was a stock photo as there was no photo of the bloody towels taken in the house. It is clear, however, that these towels received scant attention, evidenced by this exchange between Defence Attorney Adams and Dr Dolan, the ME:

Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A, Yes sir.

Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes, sir, three.

Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.

Q. Did you take them?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the Officer Mullaly. I think I told to take the.

Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left downstairs in the Marshall's office, and nothing further was done with them.

So there you have it. This was a missed opportunity to confirm whether or not these towels were menstrual pads or hand towels.

You will recall that Lizzie went on a four month long European trip. Somehow I can't see Lizzie having to wash her own menstrual pads when the party was constantly on the move. I would hazard a guess that she used the new fangled disposable pads readily available in Europe. It was the Southall Brothers who boasted that they were the pioneers of these pads. Debatable, but I have seen in one of my Lizzie Borden books an advert for a company called (I think) Canfield & Co. who claimed they were the sole agents for Southalls and whose products were readily available in the 1890s. Another reason that these towels were actually hand towels was the fact that Lizzie*s "monthly illness" was over by the Wednesday and during the last couple of days of a woman's menstrual flow is usually lighter, so there would be less blood on them.

I just wonder whether Bridget was aware of this and kept quiet. We'll never know.

[camgarsky4]

JCurrie -- thanks for the update.

In your earlier post you noted "Apparently Dr Dolan sent these rags to Professor Wood in Boston, who confirmed they were soaked in human blood, though there was no mention of what kind of towels they were." I had assumed that information also came from Pittman's book. When you communicated with her, did she happen to provide anything further on the the testing of the blood from the towels?

Thx!

[jcurrie]

The short answer is she did not. It seems the pail of bloody towels were dismissed as nothing to do with the case.